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OL recruiting - a big problem

Jim, the 2008 class (Saban's first real class and #1 overall) is the class that changed everything. Mark Barron, Terrence Cody, Marcel Dareus, Robby Green, Jerrell Harris, Donta Hightower, Barrett Jones, Mark Ingram, Julio Jones, Robert Lester, Colin Peek (transfer), Brad Smelley, Damion Square, Courtney Upshaw.

They followed it up with the 2009 class (#1 again) that featured: Quinton Dial (ended up coming on as a JUCO), DJ Fluker, Nico Johnson, Dre Kirkpatrick, Eddie Lacy, AJ McCarron, Trent Richardson, Chance Warmack, and others.

The takeaway is that while there were certainly great players from before Saban took over (Rolondo McClain, Andre Smith, Greg McElroy, and Javier Arenas most notably), the 2008 class was pretty vital to the 2009 run and the 2008/2009 classes were the core of this past year's team. Those classes made Bama as talented as any team in the country. You can directly attribute the talent brought in during those two years as the reason Bama returned to glory.
 
Jim, the 2008 class (Saban's first real class and #1 overall) is the class that changed everything. Mark Barron, Terrence Cody, Marcel Dareus, Robby Green, Jerrell Harris, Donta Hightower, Barrett Jones, Mark Ingram, Julio Jones, Robert Lester, Colin Peek (transfer), Brad Smelley, Damion Square, Courtney Upshaw. They followed it up with the 2009 class (#1 again) that featured: Quinton Dial (ended up coming on as a JUCO), DJ Fluker, Nico Johnson, Dre Kirkpatrick, Eddie Lacy, AJ McCarron, Trent Richardson, Chance Warmack, and others. The takeaway is that while there were certainly great players from before Saban took over (Rolondo McClain, Andre Smith, Greg McElroy, and Javier Arenas most notably), the 2008 class was pretty vital to the 2009 run and the 2008/2009 classes were the core of this past year's team. Those classes made Bama as talented as any team in the country. You can directly attribute the talent brought in during those two years as the reason Bama returned to glory.
Some GREAT players in the names you mentioned. I find I agree with your post completely.
 
Put it this way, Jim, once you guys reached the point where you consistently had the highest ranked recruiting classes in the WAC... you consistently won the conference. Fresno State fell off and Hawaii had one big year with June Jones' genius for the spread and a CU quarterback transfer at the helm. Otherwise, you were right where you should have been based on class rankings.

Similarly, Ohio State has been bringing in the best Big Ten classes and dominating the conference. USC the same in the Pac-12.

You can look at programs like Ole Miss and say, "Look at their class rankings. They should be winning a lot more with classes ranked in the 20s." But you're not considering that those classes put them at 9th in their conference. Or you could look at Notre Dame and question performance versus class rank, but they're playing USC, Michigan, Michigan State and Stanford every year too plus a host of other teams that recruit well. Their 2010 team only went 7-5 during the season... and that included a 28-3 beatdown they laid on Utah. This was in a transitional year with a new coach and system.

Some programs do seem to do a lot less with more. The prime examples that come to mind are UCLA and Texas A&M. Going back to 2010 again, that UCLA team went 4-8. It played a 9-game Pac-10 schedule plus 3 OOC games (Kansas State, #23 Houston, #7 Texas). They lost to KSU, but whipped Houston and Texas. That same season, Texas A&M had a 9-4 record. Most Boise State fans would consider that a poor season. It included losses to Oklahoma State (road), Arkansas, Misouri and LSU. The latter 3 were all ranked at the time they played them (#11, #21 and #11 respectively), while OSU finished the year 10-2. Two of the aTm wins were against Top 10 Nebraska and Oklahoma teams. They also beat Texas, who was unranked at the time.

The point I'm making is that it's all relative. The talent may be great, but so is just about everyone else's in the conference. It's a grind where everyone has a realistic shot at pulling an upset and your Top 20 talent may actually make you less talented in several games a year.

Also referencing 2010, consider the 5-7 CU team that almost no one from a national perspective would consider good. Those 5 wins included blowouts of Colorado State and Hawaii, a close win over Georgia, and conference wins against Kansas State and Iowa State. The 7 losses (other than the 4th quarter collapse at Kansas that sealed our coach getting fired) were all against good teams. Cal (bowl team), Missouri (bowl team), Baylor (bowl team), Texas Tech (bowl team), Oklahoma (bowl team), and Nebraska (bowl team). That was a CU team that had a 3* QB who set school passing records and first round draft picks at LT and CB. All were 3* prospects. Problem is, when that's your talent level you can't hold up during that kind of week-to-week grind in a power conference. We have tried the Boise State approach. We had teams that, from 2006-2011, would have won 8-11 games a year in a conference like the MWC or WAC. But with CU's schedule, we haven't had a winning record in that period.

I really have no patience for the Boise State fans who try to come here and lecture us about talent, recruiting and star rankings. You don't have a ****ing clue what it's like in a power conference. Your approach has been an utter failure. Koetter put Arizona State into the crapper and HaLkins was even worse at CU. The Boise State model is wonderful for what it is. But it's not exportable to a power conference where a game against Georgia is just another game on the schedule that's preceded and followed by games that are just as tough or tougher.
 
Buffnik: I'm not trying to lecture. I promise. I enjoy posts like yours for the different perspective they bring me that I would not get if I was discussing the very same subjects with a bunch of Boise State fans. Some Boise State fans might take offense at the description of the approach as "an utter failure". They might, for example, point out that Utah's recruiting classes were more or less the same as Boise State's, and they absolutely pounded the Alabama Sugar Bowl team. I do not. I take no offense. I ENJOY the outside perspective. I really and truly do. And moreover, my intent is not at all to aggravate or annoy or lecture or ANYTHING ELSE.

It's simply to enjoy getting and giving different points of view with fans that have a perspective and experiences different than my own.

Your contention is that the 2006 to 2011 Colorado teams would have been basically been contending for the conference championships in Boise State's conference every year. As an example, you listed the 2010 5-7 CU team.

Regular Season Records of the opponents Colorado beat that year: (Factoring out FCS Wins)

Colorado State: 2-9
Hawaii: 9-3 (I'd point out that Hawaii almost upset USC that year. They crapped the bed against you guys, but they were better than that game against you indicated.)
Iowa State: 3-7 (2 Wins against FCS opponents)
Kansas State: 5-5 (2 Wins against FCS opponents)
Georgia: 5-6

And from there you make the assumption that the 5-7 Colorado team would have contended for the WAC/MWC title. They had some definite quality losses, but I'm not seeing a ton of quality wins to support your point either.

I understand the viewpoint that you have no patience for BSU fans who have skepticism to some extent about talent, recruiting and star rankings. But the flip side of that is that you're basically saying that being the winningest program in college football over the last decade, including two BCS bowl wins, and nearly going to four BCS in four years (if only we had a kicker who could make chip shot field goals...), being excluded from BCS bowls 4 times despite a top-10 record in eight years...

You're basically implying that all of that is meaningless illusion. That if Boise State was in a "big boy conference" or "didn't play the little sisters of the poor" they'd have had the exact same sort of success that Colorado has had over the last few years. Conversely, you're saying that if Colorado played in Boise State's conference they would have had the exact same success as Boise State.

In other words, I'm not lecturing and I'm not trying to stress anyone's patience. But please also don't take my not buying the premise that recruiting rankings, WHILE A FACTOR, are the be-all, end-all of everything at face value. You mentioned that there are some programs who do a lot less with more, but there are also those who do a lot more with less.

For Colorado, fresh off the Hawkins era, I can definitely see where there might be some skepticism to the belief that coaches make talent work and not the other way around. From a Colorado perspective, Hawk had great seasons at Boise State and then came to Colorado and sucked balls. Ditto Koetter.
 
Put it this way, Jim, once you guys reached the point where you consistently had the highest ranked recruiting classes in the WAC... you consistently won the conference. Fresno State fell off and Hawaii had one big year with June Jones' genius for the spread and a CU quarterback transfer at the helm. Otherwise, you were right where you should have been based on class rankings.

Similarly, Ohio State has been bringing in the best Big Ten classes and dominating the conference. USC the same in the Pac-12.

You can look at programs like Ole Miss and say, "Look at their class rankings. They should be winning a lot more with classes ranked in the 20s." But you're not considering that those classes put them at 9th in their conference. Or you could look at Notre Dame and question performance versus class rank, but they're playing USC, Michigan, Michigan State and Stanford every year too plus a host of other teams that recruit well. Their 2010 team only went 7-5 during the season... and that included a 28-3 beatdown they laid on Utah. This was in a transitional year with a new coach and system.

Some programs do seem to do a lot less with more. The prime examples that come to mind are UCLA and Texas A&M. Going back to 2010 again, that UCLA team went 4-8. It played a 9-game Pac-10 schedule plus 3 OOC games (Kansas State, #23 Houston, #7 Texas). They lost to KSU, but whipped Houston and Texas. That same season, Texas A&M had a 9-4 record. Most Boise State fans would consider that a poor season. It included losses to Oklahoma State (road), Arkansas, Misouri and LSU. The latter 3 were all ranked at the time they played them (#11, #21 and #11 respectively), while OSU finished the year 10-2. Two of the aTm wins were against Top 10 Nebraska and Oklahoma teams. They also beat Texas, who was unranked at the time.

The point I'm making is that it's all relative. The talent may be great, but so is just about everyone else's in the conference. It's a grind where everyone has a realistic shot at pulling an upset and your Top 20 talent may actually make you less talented in several games a year.

Also referencing 2010, consider the 5-7 CU team that almost no one from a national perspective would consider good. Those 5 wins included blowouts of Colorado State and Hawaii, a close win over Georgia, and conference wins against Kansas State and Iowa State. The 7 losses (other than the 4th quarter collapse at Kansas that sealed our coach getting fired) were all against good teams. Cal (bowl team), Missouri (bowl team), Baylor (bowl team), Texas Tech (bowl team), Oklahoma (bowl team), and Nebraska (bowl team). That was a CU team that had a 3* QB who set school passing records and first round draft picks at LT and CB. All were 3* prospects. Problem is, when that's your talent level you can't hold up during that kind of week-to-week grind in a power conference. We have tried the Boise State approach. We had teams that, from 2006-2011, would have won 8-11 games a year in a conference like the MWC or WAC. But with CU's schedule, we haven't had a winning record in that period.

I really have no patience for the Boise State fans who try to come here and lecture us about talent, recruiting and star rankings. You don't have a ****ing clue what it's like in a power conference. Your approach has been an utter failure. Koetter put Arizona State into the crapper and HaLkins was even worse at CU. The Boise State model is wonderful for what it is. But it's not exportable to a power conference where a game against Georgia is just another game on the schedule that's preceded and followed by games that are just as tough or tougher.

Mattslapped!

Buffnik: I'm not trying to lecture. I promise. I enjoy posts like yours for the different perspective they bring me that I would not get if I was discussing the very same subjects with a bunch of Boise State fans. Some Boise State fans might take offense at the description of the approach as "an utter failure". They might, for example, point out that Utah's recruiting classes were more or less the same as Boise State's, and they absolutely pounded the Alabama Sugar Bowl team. I do not. I take no offense. I ENJOY the outside perspective. I really and truly do. And moreover, my intent is not at all to aggravate or annoy or lecture or ANYTHING ELSE.

It's simply to enjoy getting and giving different points of view with fans that have a perspective and experiences different than my own.

Your contention is that the 2006 to 2011 Colorado teams would have been basically been contending for the conference championships in Boise State's conference every year. As an example, you listed the 2010 5-7 CU team.

Regular Season Records of the opponents Colorado beat that year: (Factoring out FCS Wins)

Colorado State: 2-9
Hawaii: 9-3 (I'd point out that Hawaii almost upset USC that year. They crapped the bed against you guys, but they were better than that game against you indicated.)
Iowa State: 3-7 (2 Wins against FCS opponents)
Kansas State: 5-5 (2 Wins against FCS opponents)
Georgia: 5-6

And from there you make the assumption that the 5-7 Colorado team would have contended for the WAC/MWC title. They had some definite quality losses, but I'm not seeing a ton of quality wins to support your point either.

I understand the viewpoint that you have no patience for BSU fans who have skepticism to some extent about talent, recruiting and star rankings. But the flip side of that is that you're basically saying that being the winningest program in college football over the last decade, including two BCS bowl wins, and nearly going to four BCS in four years (if only we had a kicker who could make chip shot field goals...), being excluded from BCS bowls 4 times despite a top-10 record in eight years...

You're basically implying that all of that is meaningless illusion. That if Boise State was in a "big boy conference" or "didn't play the little sisters of the poor" they'd have had the exact same sort of success that Colorado has had over the last few years. Conversely, you're saying that if Colorado played in Boise State's conference they would have had the exact same success as Boise State.

In other words, I'm not lecturing and I'm not trying to stress anyone's patience. But please also don't take my not buying the premise that recruiting rankings, WHILE A FACTOR, are the be-all, end-all of everything at face value. You mentioned that there are some programs who do a lot less with more, but there are also those who do a lot more with less.

For Colorado, fresh off the Hawkins era, I can definitely see where there might be some skepticism to the belief that coaches make talent work and not the other way around. From a Colorado perspective, Hawk had great seasons at Boise State and then came to Colorado and sucked balls. Ditto Koetter.

Completely missing the point.
 
Completely missing the point.
Not missing the point. DEBATING the point. Buff's post said that you guys have tried the Boise State model for years and it has been an utter failure because it's not exportable to a power conference. The implication being that if Boise State had played in your conference for years we'd have your record (or worse) and vice versa.

Recruiting Rankings (Scout) from 2006 to present.

Colorado:

2006: 50
2007: 35
2008: 27
2009: 57
2010: 70
2011: 62

Average: 50

Boise State:

2006: 78
2007: 57
2008: 64
2009: 60
2010: 97
2011: 65

Average: 70th

So, again, the implication off Buff's earlier post is that if the conferences were reversed Colorado would have Boise State's success and vice versa. My response is that if I bought that at face value I may as well turn in my Boise State fan card right now and:

1. Just as some teams underachieve their talent, some massively overachieve and
2. Recruiting rankings have a margin of error associated and (this is critical)

PARTICULARLY ONCE YOU GET PAST THE VERY TOP TALENT.

I have no doubt that evaluating 5 star talent is relatively accurate. But do you really think everyone does an equal job of evaluating 2 star and 3 star talent?
 
Jim,
Look no farther than the Utah example you brought up. Utah, as you point out, recruited basically the same as Boise did for years and years. You correctly point out that they beat Alabama in the Sugar Bowl a couple years ago. Great. That's fantastic for them. Then they screwed up (metaphorically) and joined a big-boy conference. They had to go up against teams with more talent then them every single week. They didn't have the luxury of spending three weeks to prepare for USC or Oregon (which they didn't even play last year, BTW). They were 8-5 and didn't have to play Stanford or Oregon. We had to play both of those schools and we beat Utah on their home field. They went 4-5 in the Pac 12 and didn't play the two toughest teams. What does that tell you?
 
I'm not implying that Boise State's success is a meaningless illusion. It's a fantastic accomplishment.

What I am saying, though, is that Boise State fans are delusional about your relative talent level and the success you'd have in a big boy conference.

You're like the North Dakota State fan who comes on here and says that his program would be a bowl team if it played in a BCS conference... based on winning the FCS title last year and having a win against Minnesota.

I do believe that Boise State would be a bowl team. But I also know that your talent is behind programs like Missouri that consistently go to bowls and have never won a conference championship. You couldn't hold up over the course of a BCS season. And part of what happens is that when you aren't dominating the little sisters of the poor most weeks, is that you lose a lot of that ingrained belief where you "know" you are going to win every time you play because that's what almost always happens. You become just another team that has some good years, some mediocre years, some years when you make a run, and some when you kind of suck. Boise State is not like Florida State in the 90s, but a lot of your fans seem to think you are. I respect what Boise State has accomplished, but it's created a delusion.
 
Jim, Look no farther than the Utah example you brought up. Utah, as you point out, recruited basically the same as Boise did for years and years. You correctly point out that they beat Alabama in the Sugar Bowl a couple years ago. Great. That's fantastic for them. Then they screwed up (metaphorically) and joined a big-boy conference. They had to go up against teams with more talent then them every single week. They didn't have the luxury of spending three weeks to prepare for USC or Oregon (which they didn't even play last year, BTW). They were 8-5 and didn't have to play Stanford or Oregon. We had to play both of those schools and we beat Utah on their home field. What does that tell you?
It tells me that Utah lost a lot of their best players after that year and got spanked by the good teams they played ever since. In 2010, TCU crushed them by 40 points and Boise State beat the 2011 version 26-3 in the Maaco Bowl. Basically it tells me that just because a team is good in 2009 doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to be good in 2010 and 2011.

It also tells me that you're unaware that teams typically have equal amounts of time to prepare to play one another. This is a common argument I hear when (insert team X) with less talent (on paper) beats (insert team Y).

"It was their Super Bowl"
"Team that lost wasn't motivated"
"They were looking ahead to the following week"

Etc. It also tells me that the phrase "small sample size" applies.
 
I'm not implying that Boise State's success is a meaningless illusion. It's a fantastic accomplishment. I am saying, though, is that Boise State fans are delusional about your relative talent level and the success you'd have in a big boy conference. You're like the North Dakota State fan who comes on here and says that his program would be a bowl team if it played in a BCS conference... based on winning the FCS title last year and having a win against Minnesota. I do believe that Boise State would be a bowl team. But I also know that your talent is behind programs like Missouri that consistently go to bowls and have never won a conference championship. You couldn't hold up over the course of a BCS season. And part of what happens is that when you aren't dominating the little sisters of the poor most weeks, is that you lose a lot of that ingrained belief where you "know" you are going to win every time you play because that's what almost always happens. You become just another team that has some good years, some mediocre years, some years when you make a run, and some when you kind of suck. Boise State is not like Florida State in the 90s, but a lot of your fans seem to think you are. I respect what Boise State has accomplished, but it's created a delusion.
You're welcome to your viewpoint. It's hardly a unique one, but you're welcome to it. I'm not here to convert the masses and I didn't really intend for this conversation to become one about Boise State. I'm not going to try and argue this point on a Colorado board. The argument "you couldn't hold up over the course of a BCS season" is one that gets applied to my team often and it's entirely unproveable either way at this point so I'm not going to bother debating it, particularly in a somewhat hostile setting.
 
Not missing the point. DEBATING the point. Buff's post said that you guys have tried the Boise State model for years and it has been an utter failure because it's not exportable to a power conference. The implication being that if Boise State had played in your conference for years we'd have your record (or worse) and vice versa.

Recruiting Rankings (Scout) from 2006 to present.

Colorado:

2006: 50
2007: 35
2008: 27
2009: 57
2010: 70
2011: 62

Average: 50

Boise State:

2006: 78
2007: 57
2008: 64
2009: 60
2010: 97
2011: 65

Average: 70th

So, again, the implication off Buff's earlier post is that if the conferences were reversed Colorado would have Boise State's success and vice versa. My response is that if I bought that at face value I may as well turn in my Boise State fan card right now and:

1. Just as some teams underachieve their talent, some massively overachieve and
2. Recruiting rankings have a margin of error associated and (this is critical)

PARTICULARLY ONCE YOU GET PAST THE VERY TOP TALENT.

I have no doubt that evaluating 5 star talent is relatively accurate. But do you really think everyone does an equal job of evaluating 2 star and 3 star talent?

Would Colorado have had the exact same success Boise has had if the conferences were reversed? I doubt it. Would the Buffs have been a regular contender in the WAC or 2011 MWC? Little doubt in my mind.

The point is you Boise fans should relish in the success, but also realize that you are more talented than all but one or two teams on your schedule every year. Very good coaching staff, but you are also more talented top to bottom than every WAC team. You guys should have been a shoe-in for 10 victories a year. Obviously you guys went beyond that and have had some big victories over quality BCS teams.

Overall, I am not sure you really do understand recruiting rankings if you think Alabama jumping up from the high teens/low twenties to number one once Saban took over is anything but a monumental leap forward. The difference in those 15-20 spots is huge.
 
It tells me that Utah lost a lot of their best players after that year and got spanked by the good teams they played ever since. In 2010, TCU crushed them by 40 points and Boise State beat the 2011 version 26-3 in the Maaco Bowl. Basically it tells me that just because a team is good in 2009 doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to be good in 2010 and 2011.

It also tells me that you're unaware that teams typically have equal amounts of time to prepare to play one another. This is a common argument I hear when (insert team X) with less talent (on paper) beats (insert team Y).

"It was their Super Bowl"
"Team that lost wasn't motivated"
"They were looking ahead to the following week"

Etc. It also tells me that the phrase "small sample size" applies.


The players they lost were all ranked pretty much the same as the guys they kept, though. It's not like Utah had these fantastic recruiting years and then suddenly dropped off the face of the Earth. The difference isn't the talent level in Utah, it's the level of competition that they're facing. They could recruit 2* players for most positions when they're playing the likes of CSU, UNLV, Wyoming and New Mexico. When they're going up against Washington, USC, Oregon, Stanford, ASU, Cal and UCLA, they simply don't have the horses.

I'm certain that at some point, you'd love to see Boise in a big conference like the Pac 12. Be careful what you wish for. It's been proven that the Boise system does not work at this level. Nutt, Koetter and Hawkins have all met with dismal failure outside of Boise.
 
It tells me that Utah lost a lot of their best players after that year and got spanked by the good teams they played ever since. In 2010, TCU crushed them by 40 points and Boise State beat the 2011 version 26-3 in the Maaco Bowl. Basically it tells me that just because a team is good in 2009 doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to be good in 2010 and 2011.

It also tells me that you're unaware that teams typically have equal amounts of time to prepare to play one another. This is a common argument I hear when (insert team X) with less talent (on paper) beats (insert team Y).

"It was their Super Bowl"
"Team that lost wasn't motivated"
"They were looking ahead to the following week"

Etc. It also tells me that the phrase "small sample size" applies.

I know for a fact that when a program like Oklahoma misses out on the BCS championship game in a year when they were close... and play Boise State... that it's a complete letdown for them and most of their top upperclassmen are thinking more about getting ready for the NFL combine and senior days than they are about their bowl game. I'm not trying to minimize the accomplishment of that kind of win, just giving some perspective. CU beating #3 Oklahoma in Boulder during the '07 season is not on the same level as Texas beating Oklahoma in the Red River Shootout. Similarly, Boise State beating Oklahoma in a BCS bowl is not on the same level. Neither of us are getting the Oklahoma team that Texas did.
 
You have conference games against UNLV, CSU and New Mexico... Boise would be a 8 or 9 win team at best playing PAC12 teams week in and week out. Now go back to growing potatoes or staring at the ground or whatever you do in Idaho.
 
Would Colorado have had the exact same success Boise has had if the conferences were reversed? I doubt it. Would the Buffs have been a regular contender in the WAC or 2011 MWC? Little doubt in my mind. The point is you Boise fans should relish in the success, but also realize that you are more talented than all but one or two teams on your schedule every year. Very good coaching staff, but you are also more talented top to bottom than every WAC team. You guys should have been a shoe-in for 10 victories a year. Obviously you guys went beyond that and have had some big victories over quality BCS teams. Overall, I am not sure you really do understand recruiting rankings if you think Alabama jumping up from the high teens/low twenties to number one once Saban took over is anything but a monumental leap forward. The difference in those 15-20 spots is huge.
There are 20 spots of difference between Boise State and Colorado in the post you quoted. By your logic, why wouldn't Colorado have had EVEN MORE success than Boise State if the conferences were switched? If Alabama jumping from the high teens to the low twenties is a monumental leap forward, and Colorado had a 20 spot edge on Boise State during your average recruiting year, then logically you SHOULD expect to have had EVEN MORE success than Boise State had were the positions reversed and a far better team.

Which begs the question, of course, why aren't teams trying to move down to the soft, cushy conferences if it is so darned easy?

I accept the basic importance of recruiting rankings as being a RELATIVE indicator of talent. What I'm arguing is that these indicators are MUCH more accurate at the extremes than in the fuzzy middle. I would state, and I hope not to offend here, that Boise State had far more talent on their team during that 2006 to the present time period that we're discussing than Colorado did despite the 20 spot difference in recruiting rankings.

Let's say you're looking at 10,000 players. Of those 10,000, one hundred are CLEARLY elite. They are so far better than the rest that it's easy to say that they're going to be studs with a high degree of accuracy. 6000 are clearly worthless and just aren't good enough to play at the next level. You can say that with a high degree of accuracy. That leaves 3900 players that are a little harder to figure out. You assign them relative rankings but they may be heavily error prone.
 
Which begs the question, of course, why aren't teams trying to move down to the soft, cushy conferences if it is so darned easy?


This is easily answered: $

CU will take in some obscene amount of money this year. Something to the tune of $20MM+ just from their media contract alone. I think that's more than the entire MWC makes combined.
 
Meh... The sooner we have a damn 8 team playoff system, the sooner jackasses like this will go away with their "we deserve a shot at the national championship" crap.
 
You have conference games against UNLV, CSU and New Mexico... Boise would be a 8 or 9 win team at best playing PAC12 teams week in and week out. Now go back to growing potatoes or staring at the ground or whatever you do in Idaho.

You can't do much about your conference schedule. What offends me is when I see programs like Tulsa, Toledo, Miami(OH) or whatever finishing off Boise States' OOC schedule. I respect what Boise State has accomplished, but I have more respect for the Trent Dilfer and David Carr Fresno State teams that played anyone, anywhere. Those Fresno State teams hardly ever ended up ranked, but they beat some good teams, played some good teams tough, and had enough talent to put a ton of guys in the NFL. As much or more talent than the recent Boise State teams.
 
You have conference games against UNLV, CSU and New Mexico... Boise would be a 8 or 9 win team at best playing PAC12 teams week in and week out. Now go back to growing potatoes or staring at the ground or whatever you do in Idaho.
It's probably a sign that my patience with the more personal shots is wearing a little thin that I'm bothering replying to this but...

2011 Score Results:

Arizona State 48, Colorado 14
Boise State 64, Arizona State 24

(Insert stereotypical comment about Colorado here.)
 
Meh... The sooner we have a damn 8 team playoff system, the sooner jackasses like this will go away with their "we deserve a shot at the national championship" crap.

To be fair to Jim, I don't think that's his cause du jour. I think he's trying to make the argument that star ratings aren't as good an indicator of talent as we seem to think. His evidence is that Boise seems to do pretty well with a roster filled with under-the-radar guys. He's not accepting the counter-arguments to that point, though.
 
Not sure how it is possible to know this for a FACT. It makes a certain amount of intuitive, logical sense. But it also makes a whole lot of sense as a "what a total copout/after the fact" excuse.

Having talked to players and coaches.
 
2011 Score Results:

Arizona State 48, Colorado 14
Boise State 64, Arizona State 24

(Insert stereotypical comment about Colorado here.)


We scored 14 points in that game? I honestly did not know that. I stopped watching after the first 5 minutes.
 
Meh... The sooner we have a damn 8 team playoff system, the sooner jackasses like this will go away with their "we deserve a shot at the national championship" crap.
I haven't acted like a jackass. I've been respectful and polite and discussed the substantive arguments and made no personal shots. I've been, in my opinion, a nice guest. I'm a guest with a different viewpoint than the one you have. It doesn't make me a jackass.
 
You're welcome to your viewpoint. It's hardly a unique one, but you're welcome to it. I'm not here to convert the masses and I didn't really intend for this conversation to become one about Boise State. I'm not going to try and argue this point on a Colorado board. The argument "you couldn't hold up over the course of a BCS season" is one that gets applied to my team often and it's entirely unproveable either way at this point so I'm not going to bother debating it, particularly in a somewhat hostile setting.

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree about this point. If not immediately, every thread you post in you always make about BSU. Own it.
 
To be fair to Jim, I don't think that's his cause du jour. I think he's trying to make the argument that star ratings aren't as good an indicator of talent as we seem to think.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm trying to argue. Thanks for putting it better than I have.
 
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