The jury is in.

[BlackNGold]

What a night and day fan experience between Utah and CSU.

Embree had the team fired up for Utah. That was a team that was hungry for a win.

That momentum, in no shape or form, carried over to CSU.

McElwain coached circles around Embree. Embree's game day brain farts against CSU are there for anyone to see.

The picture I'm getting is that Embree is reliant on seniors and team leaders to light the spark.

Without enough team leaders, Embree is dead in the water.

Most any coach would be dead in the water without team leaders...Gary Barnett use to say "The will take themselves much farther than you (the coach) will ever be able to." I point to the 2000 season - Barnett said privately that it could be tough because he only had 6 seniors starting.

 

[Deleted member 807]

I guess I am just dumbfounded by how quickly many fans have given up on this staff. Maybe the frustration of the past 6 years is resulting in a lot less patience on the part of fans.

This staff has had one recruiting class they can call their own from start to finish and that was for a team that had not been recruiting much talent for several years. I don't want to make excuses for the game on Saturday because it was not good but this team is young and inexperienced and this staff has not had a fair amount of time, IMO, to rebuild this program.

Instant gratification is not going to occur with the CU football program, it is going to take a few more years.

The bitterness has everything to do with coaching decisions and little to do with being young.

McElwain coached circles around Embree. Had Embree been playing Chess instead of Candyland, there would be less venom amongst the ranks.

 

[J.R. Ewing]

DBT gave HaLk 5 years (well 4 years and 1 game). He has given Embo 1 year and 1 game. I find it strange as well. I've given up on our OC and OL coaches for the most part, but not JE.

That's about where I am. Given up on EB as OC. Marshall needs to go, and Brookhart seems to be in that boat as well. I'm disappointed in the loss to CSU, and especially disappointed in O-line play, but I had pretty low hopes for the season.

 

[Lt.Col.FrankSlade]

I guess I am just dumbfounded by how quickly many fans have given up on this staff. Maybe the frustration of the past 6 years is resulting in a lot less patience on the part of fans.

This staff has had one recruiting class they can call their own from start to finish and that was for a team that had not been recruiting much talent for several years. I don't want to make excuses for the game on Saturday because it was not good but this team is young and inexperienced and this staff has not had a fair amount of time, IMO, to rebuild this program.

Instant gratification is not going to occur with the CU football program, it is going to take a few more years.

Nobody is seeking "instant gratification." The Buffs just lost to CS-****ing-U. They weren't playing the Miami Hurricanes on Saturday. That CSU team will probably win about 3 or 4 games this year (which will probably be more than CU). Their talent, according to all the "experts" was significantly below CU's - but yet they dominate the line of scrimmage both on offense and defense. CSU has a rookie head coach who has no ties to the state and has about 9 months with the program, and yet their coaches appeared to be much more comfortable with the game plan and their players appeared to execute it 100x better.

When the pre-season predictions were coming out - most people were picking the Buffs to win 5 or 6 games. Some picked more, some picked less. People who are predicting a .500 season aren't looking for "instant gratification" they are looking for PROGRESS.

 

[BuffUp]

I think a lot of posters in this thread will be eating crow two years from now.

I will eat all the crow available, but there really is no chance of that. This staff is in over their head... EB has not improved on his game calling since the first game last year. Where is this running game? It looks like the same offense ran in the hawk campaign... line the running back up behind the fullback and power the ball up the middle, break off the fullback block on the backer and gain yards. Oh yea, JE is going to have a hard time getting on his buddy EB in these situations....and that is what I was scared of when they were hired as a duo... the coaching and game day preperation must improve or they need to go

 

[Ozbuff]

The bitterness has everything to do with coaching decisions and little to do with being young.

McElwain coached circles around Embree. Had Embree been playing Chess instead of Candyland, there would be less venom amongst the ranks.

I disagree. I don't think CSU looked very good, which makes the loss that much more frustrating. I think it was more a case of CU making mistakes rather than CSU causing them. Notwithstanding some questionable calls and poor O-line play, no way does CU lose that game if DD Goodson hangs onto that punt.

 

[Duff Man]

If believing hiring two inexperienced coordinators and a has-been OL coach at the time of the hire and still thinking the same thing today is "instant gratification," guilty as charged.

 

[BuffUp]

I disagree. I don't think CSU looked very good, which makes the loss that much more frustrating. I think it was more a case of CU making mistakes rather than CSU causing them. Notwithstanding some questionable calls and poor O-line play, no way does CU lose that game if DD Goodson hangs onto that punt.

it turned into a game of who can do what with the other teams mistakes...would have lost by more if it wasn't for reversing a couple of calls that went csu's way...td called back and real long play called back, lucky for CU

 

[Dark Bohner]

I disagree. I don't think CSU looked very good, which makes the loss that much more frustrating. I think it was more a case of CU making mistakes rather than CSU causing them. Notwithstanding some questionable calls and poor O-line play, no way does CU lose that game if DD Goodson hangs onto that punt.

Then I'll spell it out for you as to why this was coaching. Embree made the decision to take a timeout to force CSU to punt in the shadow of his own end zone at the end of the first half with a comfortable lead. Embree made the decision to trot out a guy who HAD NEVER FIELDED A PUNT BEFORE in the shadow of his own endzone. This is a very very low probability play.

Embree decided for a low probability 4th down play at the half yard line, when they should have done a sneak or Fullback run.

McElwain on the other hand did not get greedy in the 4th quarter, and played conservative football with multiple runs in the middle when the were in reasonable field goal range to give his team a chance at the lead. They got the field goal and lead and never looked back. I remember at the time thinking: "Uh oh this guy is playing this smart."


Embree got greedy when he shouldn't have, and McElwain guided his team with a cool hand. Embree was flat outcoached.

 

[Darth Snow]

Then I'll spell it out for you as to why this was coaching. Embree made the decision to take a timeout to CSU to punt in the shadow of his own end zone at the end of the first half with a comfortable lead. Embree made the decision to trot out a guy who HAD NEVER FIELDED A PUNT BEFORE in the shadow of his own endzone. This is a very very low probability play.

Embree decided for a low probability 4th down play at the half yard line, when they should have done a sneak or Fullback run.

McElwain on the other hand did not get greedy in the 4th quarter, and played conservative football with multiple runs in the middle when the were in reasonable field goal range to give his team a chance at the lead. They got the field goal and lead and never looked back. I remember at the time thinking: "Uh oh this guy is playing this smart."


Embree got greedy when he shouldn't have, and McElwain guided his team with a cool hand. Embree was flat outcoached.

He also got unlucky on the Punt return. Given that in today's press conference he blamed Crawley's drop and a bunch of other things on "crazy wind" or something like that, I think he still made a bad decision there. The sad thing is that he showed a LOT of trust in his team up until that point. That muffed punt crushed Embree more than anything. Not good when your HC loses confidence.

 

[Ozbuff]

it turned into a game of who can do what with the other teams mistakes...would have lost by more if it wasn't for reversing a couple of calls that went csu's way...td called back and real long play called back, lucky for CU

I agree. Could have been worse for CU, but I think we'd beat that CSU team 8 times out of 10, which I wouldn't say about any of the teams that beat us last year.

 

[Ozbuff]

Then I'll spell it out for you as to why this was coaching. Embree made the decision to take a timeout to force CSU to punt in the shadow of his own end zone at the end of the first half with a comfortable lead. Embree made the decision to trot out a guy who HAD NEVER FIELDED A PUNT BEFORE in the shadow of his own endzone. This is a very very low probability play.

Embree decided for a low probability 4th down play at the half yard line, when they should have done a sneak or Fullback run.

McElwain on the other hand did not get greedy in the 4th quarter, and played conservative football with multiple runs in the middle when the were in reasonable field goal range to give his team a chance at the lead. They got the field goal and lead and never looked back. I remember at the time thinking: "Uh oh this guy is playing this smart."


Embree got greedy when he shouldn't have, and McElwain guided his team with a cool hand. Embree was flat outcoached.

I agree with your points. Guess I'm just saying that CSU didn't impress either. I also don't think that going for it on 4th and goal and the half yard line was greedy. It was just a bad play call due to lack of confidence in the O-line. They should have tried to pound it in with Christian Powell. I also have no idea what was going on on the 4th down that ended the game. I'd think you'd at least call a pass play that gets you the two yards without yards after the catch. I can only assume that Creer was Webb's primary option. If not, there's no way he should have passed it to him.

In short, I agree with what you're saying. I just wasn't impressed with McElwain either.

 

[Deleted member 807]

I disagree. I don't think CSU looked very good, which makes the loss that much more frustrating. I think it was more a case of CU making mistakes rather than CSU causing them. Notwithstanding some questionable calls and poor O-line play, no way does CU lose that game if DD Goodson hangs onto that punt.

McElwain probed CU'S defense. They adjusted to CUD by putting a couple hats on him. They figured out CU'S weakness...sweeps around the outside with blocking schemes that got their RB into the Buffs secondary. A variety in passing routes used by CSU confused CU'S maned coverage.

On Defense, CSU stacked the box and took away the run. They blitzed and knew they were on to a winning strategy by challenging Webb to throw deep or dump the ball off behind the rush.

On special teams, the Rams kicked well, were willing to mix things up with a botched on-sides (bad execution, but a good call), and they covered the turn over.

In all phases of the game, CSU did more with less.

CSU was in command of three quarters (1,3 & 4)

More importantly, they found a way to win and didn't cave when the Buffs were in the lead.

The absense of questionable calls is one attribute that defines a solid coach.

Finding a way to win games when your team is down is another.

CU should have had the wherewithall to overcome Goodson's punt return. But CU folded like a Chinese washhouse.

 

[BlackNGold]

Then I'll spell it out for you as to why this was coaching. Embree made the decision to take a timeout to force CSU to punt in the shadow of his own end zone at the end of the first half with a comfortable lead. Embree made the decision to trot out a guy who HAD NEVER FIELDED A PUNT BEFORE in the shadow of his own endzone. This is a very very low probability play.

Embree decided for a low probability 4th down play at the half yard line, when they should have done a sneak or Fullback run.

McElwain on the other hand did not get greedy in the 4th quarter, and played conservative football with multiple runs in the middle when the were in reasonable field goal range to give his team a chance at the lead. They got the field goal and lead and never looked back. I remember at the time thinking: "Uh oh this guy is playing this smart."


Embree got greedy when he shouldn't have, and McElwain guided his team with a cool hand. Embree was flat outcoached.

I agree with you on all of that. The biggest concern for me was how quickly the team got deflated after the muffed punt...turn overs happen - you have to respond to adversity. This team failed to do that.

 

[cu3x]

The female sideline announcer noted that McE was pretty cool and calm at halftime, but that JE had gone ballistic over the muffed punt. Jon needs some better self-control. A coach who is ranting doesn't usually inspire a lot of confidence.

 

[Dark Bohner]

The female sideline announcer noted that McE was pretty cool and calm at halftime, but that JE had gone ballistic over the muffed punt. Jon needs some better self-control. A coach who is ranting doesn't usually inspire a lot of confidence.

Especially when it was his own damn fault. He should not have called a time out and should not have put anybody back there to field it.

 

[jpbuff]

Good lord. If he yells he needs to calm down, if he is calm he shows no fire. Catch the damn ball like your supposed to and there isn't a problem.

I'm not making excuses for Embree but he can't catch, throw or tackle.

I don't hear anyone mentioning the two 4th downs they converted in the 1st half. I also don't hear anyone mentioning how CSU went for it on 4th and didn't convert. I believe we scored on the next possession.

We have little senior leadership. Lots of new kids out there and we are going to have some growing pains.

 

[cu3x]

Good lord. If he yells he needs to calm down, if he is calm he shows no fire. Catch the damn ball like your supposed to and there isn't a problem.I'm not making excuses for Embree but he can't catch, throw or tackle. I don't hear anyone mentioning the two 4th downs they converted in the 1st half. I also don't hear anyone mentioning how CSU went for it on 4th and didn't convert. I believe we scored on the next possession.We have little senior leadership. Lots of new kids out there and we are going to have some growing pains.

I agree and appreciate that Embree hasn't tried to use the injury to Polk (and Henderson) as an excuse. Polk was the D leader and, with our inexperience, his loss was huge.There are a lot of places between calm and ballistic and Embree shoud know how to react better. These kids are looking to him for strength and leadership.

 

[buffalocu81]

Yep. The very last things Webb should have done on that 4th down play were:

1) take a sack

2) throw the ball away

Webb should have never been put in that position to begin with. Everyone could see he was hurt and rolling him out was a stupid call. Give it to the FB Powell or kick the FG and take the damn points. One question I have asked myself is what would CU's defense do on the 4th down after the TD was nullified. CSU was more fired up. What would have been the mindset of CU? Would CSU scored on the next play easily or would CU shown the same fire that CSU showed? I am betting we would have folded like a rug but who knows.

 

[Deleted member 807]

One of the CSU D-Lineman had to sit out on 4th down for losing a helmet on the prior play.

I thought for sure a running play involving a full back would go towards the substitute.

 

[DBT]

DBT gave HaLk 5 years (well 4 years and 1 game). He has given Embo 1 year and 1 game. I find it strange as well. I've given up on our OC and OL coaches for the most part, but not JE.

Listen, I was not a fan of Hawkins. I was pissed at all the shots people on the board were taking at the program and didn't see the benefit of it. I felt the vitriol was a detriment to the program. A lot of people back than had reached their snapping point. I didn't quite understand that then. But I do now. I'm at mine. Maybe its because I am now a season ticket holder and am somewhat invested in the program whereas I was not during the Hawkins years.

 

[tante]

Listen, I was not a fan of Hawkins. I was pissed at all the shots people on the board were taking at the program and didn't see the benefit of it. I felt the vitriol was a detriment to the program. A lot of people back than had reached their snapping point. I didn't quite understand that then. But I do now. I'm at mine. Maybe its because I am now a season ticket holder and am somewhat invested in the program whereas I was not during the Hawkins years.

I'm surprised you are just now a season ticket holder. I would have guessed different.

 

[Mick Ronson]

Why is it so hard to admit that this, get the band back together, all alumni hire was a bad idea to begin with?

i haven't completely given up on JE, but i wasn't a tremendous fan of this idea to begin with. we did nostalgia already one time with Barney (even with the Kubiak flirtation and some of the luster off GB...it made sense).

and as bad as this will taste, i thought we should have given McElwain more serious consideration. established assistant from a winner. we saw exactly what we want, a couple long, sustained 4th quarter drives to win a game. except they did it, not us.

agree with the poster who brought up the CSU play with 3 wideouts and we call TO. i mean, wow. c'mon coaches....this is 2012, not 1985.

Junc has a really good post back on page 5 or so.

 

[Darth Snow]

Listen, I was not a fan of Hawkins. I was pissed at all the shots people on the board were taking at the program and didn't see the benefit of it. I felt the vitriol was a detriment to the program. A lot of people back than had reached their snapping point. I didn't quite understand that then. But I do now. I'm at mine. Maybe its because I am now a season ticket holder and am somewhat invested in the program whereas I was not during the Hawkins years.

fair enough. I don't agree, but fair enough. It seems we find ourselves on opposite sides of the aisle once again.

 

[BuffUp]

Listen, I was not a fan of Hawkins. I was pissed at all the shots people on the board were taking at the program and didn't see the benefit of it. I felt the vitriol was a detriment to the program. A lot of people back than had reached their snapping point. I didn't quite understand that then. But I do now. I'm at mine. Maybe its because I am now a season ticket holder and am somewhat invested in the program whereas I was not during the Hawkins years.

It's tough, isn't it...now be a season holder since the late 80's, dragging your soon to be wife/and now the whole family up there to see these a** whippings? The tough part is staying dedicated to a program that has changed directions so many times and so many ways in that time? Really makes you ponder your allegiance or question it. Especially when we as fans have no say in the direction of the program - we just show up with checkbook in hand and fingers crossed.

 

[DBT]

I'm surprised you are just now a season ticket holder. I would have guessed different.

When I was paying tuition for 3 kids at once up in Boulder, I couldn't afford it. Now I'm only down to 1.

 

[Darth Snow]

When I was paying tuition for 3 kids at once up in Boulder, I couldn't afford it. Now I'm only down to 1.

you didn't miss much.

 

[tante]

When I was paying tuition for 3 kids at once up in Boulder, I couldn't afford it. Now I'm only down to 1.

You think they would offer a special: send 3 or more kids to CU and get free season tickets.

 

[DBT]

It's tough, isn't it...now be a season holder since the late 80's, dragging your soon to be wife/and now the whole family up there to see these a** whippings? The tough part is staying dedicated to a program that has changed directions so many times and so many ways in that time? Really makes you ponder your allegiance or question it. Especially when we as fans have no say in the direction of the program - we just show up with checkbook in hand and fingers crossed.

I'm pretty convinced that this program needs an ingestion of new energy from the admin. That could come from announcing a major facilities improvement program. I remember one of the recruits who sounded excited about CU because "they showed me what the new facilities are going to look like." Were they lying to him? In defense of Embo, he is like a fighter with one hand tied behind his back.

 

[Darth Snow]

You think they would offer a special: send 3 or more kids to CU and get free season tickets.

Or at least a goddamn cookie. DBT, did you even get a ****ing cookie?