BehindEnemyLines
beware the habu
I'm not sure who it has deterred (see also, ****bailer)
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We now take you (one again) to State College, Pennsylvania.
- Thread starter Jayne Cobb
- Start date
I'm not sure who it has deterred (see also, ****bailer)
I know. But what happened was that someone who hadn't been on the coaching staff in years was seen by a member of the current coaching staff molesting a kid on campus and the head coach + senior administrators chose not to go to authorities when they learned of this. The NCAA's case that it had any grounds to issue any penalties to the football program was very thin. In fact, they had no grounds but public sentiment was so much in the NCAA's favor that PSU accepted most of the penalty. Which was the right thing to do by the NCAA and PSU showed how much they were overly focused on the cult of Paterno that created the coverup, even in the final penalty settlement, when the concession they were most interested in getting was making sure none of his wins were vacated and he kept his record.
The fact that Joe Pa's wins were restored was and still is a complete and utter joke and a slap in the face to the victims. It was like saying, "well, you know, it's bad what happened to you and all, but we're in the business of promoting sporting events, not caring about victims' rights."
I hope that this information makes them reconsider the subject again. How about vacating them going back to 1976, the ****ing sanctimonious prick?
I hope that this information makes them reconsider the subject again. How about vacating them going back to 1976, the ****ing sanctimonious prick?
How do the two bolded statements go together? The head football coach and senior university administrators knew about this and chose to do nothing, yet there are no grounds in which to punish the football program? Huh?
It wasn't related to play on the field or to student athletes, which is what the NCAA is in charge of. Coincidence that those people were related to athletics.
So the men in charge of the play on the field and student athletes aren't subject to NCAA rules?
If this situation happened in the physics department at PSU, should the Physics department be defunded? No. The people involved would be punished for their criminal charges and the school would move on.
Not saying their shouldn't be punishment, the behavior and the attitudes are completely and totally unacceptable and those ****ers should have the highest punishments levied against them. I just don't see how an athletics organization has the jurisdiction to punish anyone for criminal acts, especially when those acts did not involve the operation or handling of athletics.
CUFan
Welcome back
Honestly if the school cared at all about these victims, they would admit decades of cover-up and shut down the football program. They should not need enforcement from the NCAA. Since the school was unwilling to take any action for decades, and is unwilling to take any action now, one can only conclude that the school values money and football more than the victims and humanity. I recognize my opinion may seem harsh to some, but, to me, there are more important things in life than money and football.
The NCAA is the "National Collegiate Athletic Administration". The by-laws include things like recruiting rules, academic compliance, benefits & obligations for student-athletes, etc. This was a criminal matter.
Quoting from wiki: In the NCAA's view, Spanier, Curley, Schultz and Paterno's cover-up of Sandusky's crimes constituted "a failure of institutional and individual integrity," and thus violated basic principles of intercollegiate athletics that were over and above specific NCAA policies.
Basically, the NCAA was not on solid ground here to claim it had any jurisdiction/ justification to issue penalties. But PSU was so in the wrong and in such a bad place that it had very little choice but to take its lumps from the NCAA regardless of how strong its case may have been if it had decided to oppose all penalties.
Understand where you're coming from and how the technicalities make things work, but completely disagree about how things should work. If Athletic Department employees using the football program's network to commit crimes and then stage a massive 30+ year cover up of said crimes, the NCAA should absolutely be able to nuke the football program.
The investigative report (paid for by PSU and conducted by an investigator hired by PSU so no it wasn't a witch hunt) found that Paterno decided and Spanier, Curley, and Schultz went along with the decision not to pursue investigation or action against Sandusky because to paraphrase " It would have a negative impact on the image of the program." In other words little boys getting raped was less important that protecting the image of the football program at a state university and the football coach was allowed to make that decision instead of the university president, the athletic director, or anyone else.
This is the NCAAs business because it has a direct impact on the image of college football as a whole and more importantly on the concept of institutional control. Instead of even sticking to their limited decision the NCAA chickened out.
If justice had been served the NCAA should have shut the program down for at least one year, required that a new coaching staff and athletic department staff with no ties to the prior staff be hired, and to show evidence that the university was now in control of the program, not vice versa.
I find it hard to believe that any organization or association would not have the power to remove a member for deliberate and ongoing participation in a felony. In this case the felony is also clearly a violation of title IX which would make their case even stronger. The NCAA should have told PSU that simply you abide by our decision or you are no longer a member and can find a different venue for participation.
Had this been Pittsburgh State (D-2 in Kansas) instead of revenue producing Penn State I have no question the would have lowered the boom but they are afraid of the prominent members so the message is that if you are big enough anything goes in the name of keeping the money flowing, even covering for a serial pedo.
This is the NCAAs business because it has a direct impact on the image of college football as a whole and more importantly on the concept of institutional control. Instead of even sticking to their limited decision the NCAA chickened out.
If justice had been served the NCAA should have shut the program down for at least one year, required that a new coaching staff and athletic department staff with no ties to the prior staff be hired, and to show evidence that the university was now in control of the program, not vice versa.
I find it hard to believe that any organization or association would not have the power to remove a member for deliberate and ongoing participation in a felony. In this case the felony is also clearly a violation of title IX which would make their case even stronger. The NCAA should have told PSU that simply you abide by our decision or you are no longer a member and can find a different venue for participation.
Had this been Pittsburgh State (D-2 in Kansas) instead of revenue producing Penn State I have no question the would have lowered the boom but they are afraid of the prominent members so the message is that if you are big enough anything goes in the name of keeping the money flowing, even covering for a serial pedo.
@MtnBuff :
1. Title IX states that: No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance. (used wiki summary, so I'm being lazy)
How is failure to report someone for suspected child abuse a Title IX issue?
2. The NCAA itself said that there was nothing in its by-laws that PSU directly violated. Therefore, they stretched definitions to say that the violation was to underlying principles upon which the organization was founded. That's thin.
Now, I'm not saying that PSU shouldn't have lost scholarships, experienced a post-season ban, incurred fines, or had wins vacated. Something had to be done to protect the NCAA college football brand regardless of whether the NCAA had specific jurisdiction here. And I believe that there was further pressure applied by the Big Ten, which fined PSU separately and likely had more jurisdiction on "conduct detrimental to the league" and could have voted to remove PSU as a member institution if it didn't accept substantially all of the NCAA penalty -- which was the big stick here. But the NCAA, when it comes right down to it, is pretty much toothless on its own.
1. Title IX states that: No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance. (used wiki summary, so I'm being lazy)
How is failure to report someone for suspected child abuse a Title IX issue?
2. The NCAA itself said that there was nothing in its by-laws that PSU directly violated. Therefore, they stretched definitions to say that the violation was to underlying principles upon which the organization was founded. That's thin.
Now, I'm not saying that PSU shouldn't have lost scholarships, experienced a post-season ban, incurred fines, or had wins vacated. Something had to be done to protect the NCAA college football brand regardless of whether the NCAA had specific jurisdiction here. And I believe that there was further pressure applied by the Big Ten, which fined PSU separately and likely had more jurisdiction on "conduct detrimental to the league" and could have voted to remove PSU as a member institution if it didn't accept substantially all of the NCAA penalty -- which was the big stick here. But the NCAA, when it comes right down to it, is pretty much toothless on its own.
Money is the only thing that will cause this.
Morals don't exist when money gets in the way.
@Buffnik
You make some good points but I think the NCAA has a lot more power than they choose to use.
In regards to title IX, the protections extend beyond sex and essentially mean that anyone should be able to enjoy the benefits of the educational institution without fear of discrimination including sexual discrimination. This is the basis of the title IX claims regarding rape and harassment on campuses. These protections include not only students but anyone using the facilities of the campus since the campus is built and maintained using public funds.
By engaging in an ongoing criminal activity PSU endangered the opperation of the NCAA and it's member institutions as a whole. The NCAA clearly states that it's members have an obligation to conduct themselves in accordance the rules and regulations and to maintain institutional control over their programs. Engaging in a clearly criminal activity and allowing a coach to decide to cover up that behavior clearly shows a lack of institutional control. Give me a decent lawyer and if I am in a contract with somebody who is willingly and knowingly engaged in an ongoing felony, especially against vulnerable individuals that doesn't need to be written into the contract in order to use it in breaking the contract.
The NCAA chooses to be toothless. After the SMU incident the NCAA has been very clear that they don't have the stomach to make enforcement decisions that has significant impacts on individual institutions.
The consequences of this will eventually impact college sports. As we hear about hookers and drugs at Miami, rapes at Baylor, many more, and so far the worst at Penn State the tide of opinion will continue to turn against college sports, football in particular. Each time the NCAA fails to act substantially it get us closer to the day that some US congress member or members decide to use college sports as their opportunity to create a high profile. At that point who is going to argue against preventing college girls from being raped, children from being abused, drug use and prostitution from being controlled. The federal government will end up coming down on the NCAA and it's members and their solution will be much more politically motivated than practical.
You make some good points but I think the NCAA has a lot more power than they choose to use.
In regards to title IX, the protections extend beyond sex and essentially mean that anyone should be able to enjoy the benefits of the educational institution without fear of discrimination including sexual discrimination. This is the basis of the title IX claims regarding rape and harassment on campuses. These protections include not only students but anyone using the facilities of the campus since the campus is built and maintained using public funds.
By engaging in an ongoing criminal activity PSU endangered the opperation of the NCAA and it's member institutions as a whole. The NCAA clearly states that it's members have an obligation to conduct themselves in accordance the rules and regulations and to maintain institutional control over their programs. Engaging in a clearly criminal activity and allowing a coach to decide to cover up that behavior clearly shows a lack of institutional control. Give me a decent lawyer and if I am in a contract with somebody who is willingly and knowingly engaged in an ongoing felony, especially against vulnerable individuals that doesn't need to be written into the contract in order to use it in breaking the contract.
The NCAA chooses to be toothless. After the SMU incident the NCAA has been very clear that they don't have the stomach to make enforcement decisions that has significant impacts on individual institutions.
The consequences of this will eventually impact college sports. As we hear about hookers and drugs at Miami, rapes at Baylor, many more, and so far the worst at Penn State the tide of opinion will continue to turn against college sports, football in particular. Each time the NCAA fails to act substantially it get us closer to the day that some US congress member or members decide to use college sports as their opportunity to create a high profile. At that point who is going to argue against preventing college girls from being raped, children from being abused, drug use and prostitution from being controlled. The federal government will end up coming down on the NCAA and it's members and their solution will be much more politically motivated than practical.
I don't think anything was ever pursued against Penn State under Title IX. All I've seen is media speculation that it could happen. Probably means that the feds didn't have a case there. Or if they did, they took it off the table in exchange for university cooperation on the criminal investigation.
Deleted member 807
Guest
Law firm Pepper Hamilton defended Penn State during this fiasco.
Anyone want to guess which law firm Ken Starr hired to investigate institutional control issues at Baylor?
Yep. So, who brings this penalty if the NCAA doesn't have authority?
BlackNGold
Club Member
NCAA overstepped their authority in getting involved in a criminal matter. Not to say there should not be punishment but this is outside of their area of authority. An the NCAA is capable of screwing plenty of things up they do have authority over. They reinstated the wins because they were going to lose the court case - they had used extortion (threatening the "Death Penalty" without due process) to get PSU to sign the original decree. The end does not justify the means.
BlackNGold
Club Member
Sandusky is in jail for the rest of his life. Curley, Schultz, and Spanier are still on trial for their roles. Penn State is going to be in Civil litigation for years.
Jesus. Not this again.
This is exactly what Pedo State wants to happen. They want everyone to just forget what they allowed to happen, as long as the games go on, people buy tickets and donate to the AD, and all that gets mentioned is the scores they are happy.
It has to keep being mentioned and discussed, their "loyal" fans, the ones who protested any kind of punishment for Saint JoPa since he won them games need to keep getting it rubbed in their faces.
Nice to say forget about it and move on. Be nice if the victims of this kind of thing could do the same.
When they can show that they have made a real and substantial change to the culture of the university which would respond to something like this by protecting the victims then it will be time to move on.
I just saw that this is the lead story on NBCNews.com. I admit I haven't followed every single detail of this case so I don't know how much of this is new. It sounds like it's new reporting, though.
Sandusky Case Bombshell: Did 6 Penn State Coaches Witness Abuse?
Arguments about NCAA jurisdiction aside, if ever there was a program that deserved a permanent death penalty, it is this one.
Sandusky Case Bombshell: Did 6 Penn State Coaches Witness Abuse?
Arguments about NCAA jurisdiction aside, if ever there was a program that deserved a permanent death penalty, it is this one.
So creepy that sandusky was allowed to hang around the fringes of the program when he was no longer employed by them.
- Football coach uses team camps and facilities to sexually abuse children for 40 years.... Not a football program/AD issue they say.
- Six different assistant football coaches witnessed the abuse.... Not a football program/AD issue they say
- Head football coach knew about it all along and did nothing... Not a football program/AD issue they say.
- Senior athletic department administrators knew about it all along and did nothing.... Not a football program/AD issue they say.
Seems legit.
- Six different assistant football coaches witnessed the abuse.... Not a football program/AD issue they say
- Head football coach knew about it all along and did nothing... Not a football program/AD issue they say.
- Senior athletic department administrators knew about it all along and did nothing.... Not a football program/AD issue they say.
Seems legit.
Not an NCAA issue, they say.
The nature of Sandusky's crimes are about as bad as it gets. I don't know that it's possible to separate out our emotions here. But in terms of NCAA jurisdiction, this is no different than if he'd been committing some other crime under similar circumstances. Like, for example, if he'd been running a Ponzi scheme and ripping off PSU boosters, some PSU coaches and administrators had witnessed wrongdoing while others had heard rumors or had suspicions, the program swept it under the rug and the senior university officials had failed to report it to federal authorities, then officials perjured themselves when questioned by the feds. That would be a criminal case. PSU officials would be in legal trouble. The perpetrator would go to jail. PSU would have huge fines levied against it. The governor's office and their conference would come down on PSU. But would it make sense for the NCAA to vacate wins, issue a post-season ban, penalize scholarships, and allow all players to transfer with a waiver of the need for them to sit out a year?
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Buffenuf
massive tool
FIFY! Worse thing is JoePa got away with all this after being sanctimoniously held out as an example of an exemplary college coach, running an exemplary program. Yeah, all his players graduated, but........the sickening downside of what was covered up. There are truly no words.
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bigskybuff
Well-Known Member
All I know is that I will root against Ped St. In every sport for the rest of my life. If I was an alum, I'd be embarrassed to have a sticker or wear anything that has the Ped St. Logo on it.