Big 10 expansion -- will Pac 10 be forced to expand?

[77buff]

That is the same argument people had for Penn State to join the Big East back in the 80's & 90's, when they joined the Big Ten everyone thought they would be \"diluted\" in prestige.

Getting the same $ as Northwestern or Purdue would be just fine with them, as they collect $20+ million in conference money.

Nebraska currently gets less than half of that from the Big 12.

So, your argument is that getting $9 million a year from the Big 12, while the other teams in your division get $6 to 8 million is better than everyone getting $23 million a year?

The corn would still sell more tickets to home games at much higher prices, more merchandise, etc. so they would NOT be on the same playing field as those schools.

The main Big 12 TV contract has 6 1/2 years remaining at the payouts that now look miniscule compared to B10 and SEC teams. The ACC and Pac Ten will be renewing theirs in 2011 & 2012 respectively; don't be surprised if they are able to get contracts that are competitive with the Big 12, if not better. The Big 12 is losing ground in the national \"arms race\".

The SEC and Big Ten are on another level with TV contract payouts, and bowl game payouts; any athletic director worth a dime is hoping for a chance to go there.

The \"tradition\" arguments are certainly more valid, but more than doubling your conference payout would test those loyalties to the extreme...

So Nebraska would lose the annual CU game? They could schedule that as an OOC game.

They would lose the annual OU game? That's already happened within the Big 12 scheduling rotation.

They would lose the Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and Iowa State games? To be replaced with Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Northwestern maybe.

They would lose access to Texas recruiting? There would be some drop off for the kids that wanted to play in front of home crowds, but there would be gains in the Chicago area, and Ohio; and with nearly all Big Ten games on national TV many kids would still want to go there anyway. It's not like the coaching staff is going to stop calling the high school coaches in Texas the moment that they move to the Big Ten.

It's not like they would be joining the SEC or Big East. They would still be a Midwestern team playing in a Midwestern conference with rival programs on their border and nearby. An annual game with Iowa would pretty quickly turn into a rivalry to match the OU-Nebraska games of the Big Eight days.

Revenue by conference
SEC $350,193,187
Big Ten $276,809,402
Big XII $258,812,765
ACC $180,171,498
Pac 10 $176,744,243
Big East $84,659,903
Conference USA $62,565,804
WAC $34,756,625
Mountain West $53,061,049*
Notre Dame $38,596,090
MAC $25,297,901

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
Note: Data from 2003-2004 compiled using 2005 conference alignments.

Average Football Revenues per school
Notre Dame $38,596,090
SEC $35,019,318.70
Big Ten $25,164,491.09
Big XII $$21,567,730.42
Pac 10 $17,674,424.30
ACC $15,014,291.50
Big East $10,582,487.88
Mountain West $6,632,631.13*
Conference USA $5,213,817.00
WAC $3,475,662.50
MAC $2,108,158.42

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
These figures are dated, but there is not a hell of alot of difference.
I would say Nebraska's share is alot more than Baylor or ISU.

 

[PhillyBuff]

Revenue by conference
SEC $350,193,187
Big Ten $276,809,402
Big XII $258,812,765
ACC $180,171,498
Pac 10 $176,744,243
Big East $84,659,903
Conference USA $62,565,804
WAC $34,756,625
Mountain West $53,061,049*
Notre Dame $38,596,090
MAC $25,297,901

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
Note: Data from 2003-2004 compiled using 2005 conference alignments.

Average Football Revenues per school
Notre Dame $38,596,090
SEC $35,019,318.70
Big Ten $25,164,491.09
Big XII $$21,567,730.42
Pac 10 $17,674,424.30
ACC $15,014,291.50
Big East $10,582,487.88
Mountain West $6,632,631.13*
Conference USA $5,213,817.00
WAC $3,475,662.50
MAC $2,108,158.42

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
These figures are dated, but there is not a hell of alot of difference.
I would say Nebraska's share is alot more than Baylor or ISU.

If those are facts.... maybe NOtre Dame is not so dumb.... NBC is...

 

[BeachBronco]

An ESPN article I just read said that Notre Dame gets $8 mill/yr from NBC whereas the Big 10 schools get $20 mill/yr from their media contracts.

 

[Flatirons2]

And who is sitting is the best seat in the house? Vanderbilt, 6,000 students getting 35Mill. 14 Mill more than UT gets from being in the B12, what could CU do with 14Mill more in revenue share each year? Buy out a coach

 

[PhillyBuff]

An ESPN article I just read said that Notre Dame gets $8 mill/yr from NBC whereas the Big 10 schools get $20 mill/yr from their media contracts.

there has to be a bowl payout in that figure....

I would be willing to bet that ND might be the top dog in money every year IF they get the bowl payout....

 

[PhillyBuff]

And who is sitting is the best seat in the house? Vanderbilt, 6,000 students getting 35Mill. 14 Mill more than UT gets from being in the B12, what could CU do with 14Mill more in revenue share each year? Buy out a coach

I didn't think the SEC was banging on our door.. :smile2:

 

[Sportsfan101]

Revenue by conference
SEC $350,193,187
Big Ten $276,809,402
Big XII $258,812,765
ACC $180,171,498
Pac 10 $176,744,243
Big East $84,659,903
Conference USA $62,565,804
WAC $34,756,625
Mountain West $53,061,049*
Notre Dame $38,596,090
MAC $25,297,901

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
Note: Data from 2003-2004 compiled using 2005 conference alignments.

Average Football Revenues per school
Notre Dame $38,596,090
SEC $35,019,318.70
Big Ten $25,164,491.09
Big XII $$21,567,730.42
Pac 10 $17,674,424.30
ACC $15,014,291.50
Big East $10,582,487.88
Mountain West $6,632,631.13*
Conference USA $5,213,817.00
WAC $3,475,662.50
MAC $2,108,158.42

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
These figures are dated, but there is not a hell of alot of difference.
I would say Nebraska's share is alot more than Baylor or ISU.

This info is not consistent with what I've been reading elsewhere. Not saying that it is incorrect, but what is the source? I'm also sure that distribution of the money differs from conference to conference. I've read that CU's take-away from the B12 on yearly basis is $8.5 million, but that may simply be the football money CU gets from TV deal (and not other ancillary revenue sources for the conference like bball rights, championship games, etc.) Also, we're sort of comparing apples to oranges because one of the reasons the Pac-10 would want to add CU or Utah is to add the conference championship game revenue, which could be $10-12 million/year in additional revenue.

Someone with the time and expertise should audit payouts and see whether the Pac 10, with an expiring TV deal in 2012, the possible addition of CU and Utah, and likelihood of much greater future rights fee (B12 doesn't expire until 2016), makes sense from a financial perspective over the B12.

 

[Scotch]

I'm all for a move to the PAC 10. Get it done. Good size alumni base out west, and I'd bet donation $ would go up as a result.

I don't really care about our history with the current conference/schools. The only game we play every year that I'd miss would be the fuskers, and even then not really. If it's really that important, tell the lammies to go **** themselves, and schedule the fuskers @Invesco every year(we'd probably be outnumbered in the stands but whatever).

 

[SuperiorBuff]

The mere thought of CU considering the MWC, even in passing, makes me wretch. The only recruiting locations in the conference are TCU and SD State, and I sincerely doubt TCU remains in the conference. This is not a step down from the Big XII, it is a jump from a first world country to a second world country. This is giving up on decades of striving higher in athletics. None of the schools in that conference will be considered the cream of the NCAA over the long haul. This would be the equivalent of CU giving up and would signify the end of my donations to the athletic department.

 

[Daaah]

The mere thought of CU considering the MWC, even in passing, makes me wretch. The only recruiting locations in the conference are TCU and SD State, and I sincerely doubt TCU remains in the conference. This is not a step down from the Big XII, it is a jump from a first world country to a second world country. This is giving up on decades of striving higher in athletics. None of the schools in that conference will be considered the cream of the NCAA over the long haul. This would be the equivalent of CU giving up and would signify the end of my donations to the athletic department.

Exactly. I do not want to move to a conference where it doesn't matter if you win it. If that's the case, what's the point?

 

[BeachBronco]

but if the MWC was a BCS conference then why not, it should be a BCS conference anyhow, their football is as good as the Big East or ACC and probably as good as the Big 12 this year.........

 

[SuperiorBuff]

The Big East and ACC are in very populated areas and have built in recruiting grounds for much of the conference schedule. This doesn't exist for the MWC , recruiting will be even more challenging than it is now. It would be settling, not striving and completely unacceptable.

 

[SINKRATZ]

An ESPN article I just read said that Notre Dame gets $8 mill/yr from NBC whereas the Big 10 schools get $20 mill/yr from their media contracts.

Notre Dame is in kind of a risk/reward position with the BCS. CU is guaranteed a BCS payout every year since the Big 12 champ gets an automatic bid and the conference teams split a big chunk of change. Notre Dame misses out on the BCS payday when they don't make a BCS bowl, but when they do, as an independent they don't have to split they payout with anyone so it's a big windfall for them.

Of course they make loads from NBC and merchandise etc every year, so it's probably worth the gamble - and why it's so important for them to be in the hunt for the BCS every year.

 

[Daaah]

but if the MWC was a BCS conference then why not, it should be a BCS conference anyhow, their football is as good as the Big East or ACC and probably as good as the Big 12 this year.........

I don't see how getting an automatic bid changes things. You already pretty much get invited to a BCS game if you go undefeated and come from the MWC. But it doesn't matter 'cause you don't get to play for it all.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

there has to be a bowl payout in that figure....

I would be willing to bet that ND might be the top dog in money every year IF they get the bowl payout....

ND keeps 100% of any bowl revenue whereas the money would be divided amongst all the members of the conference. CU gets 1/12th of Texas' trip to the mNC game. If the Big 12 had send a 2nd team we'd have even more revenue like the Big 10 and SEC are getting.

If the Big 10 and Pac 10 move to a mega conference format I wonder how long before the conference drive up the pressure to kick ND out of the BCS money club. :devil:

 

[sackman]

I remember heading into the game with the fuskers this year saying "gawd, I hate this game". Every two years we get a bunch of random asshats who have never been to a CU game all year and they show up for that one game. I'm not talking about the 10,000 or so fusker fans. No, these are the retarded goofs who just want to go see the big game of the year. I hate it. I wouldn't be opposed to leaving the conference and dropping the game entirely. Even when we win, the game is a pain in the ass.

 

[Flatirons2]

ND will just schedule two more games at the new Yankee staduim to offset the lossed income. They did vote as a team not to go to a bowl this year so I don't think it'll strap them to bad.

 

[DesertDawg526]

uw and ou will never agree to it. ... for the same type of reasons we shouldn't have agreed to it in the b12. plus, the last time they discussed expansion, the schools that would not be in the usc/ucla division squealed big time. those are good road trips and good ticket sellers too.

i don't think you can sell a division split. the only way it works, i think, is to protect the one traditional rivalry and rotate the games equally so that no one feels like they got screwed out of a glamorous game unfairly.

I agree with this.

The problem, in particular, is that the traditional top powers in the Pac-10 are 1.USC 2.UW and 3.UCLA. There is no way UW will give up games with the L.A. schools due to the recruiting inroads there. A pure north-south split would be devastating for the Pacific Northwest schools.

I think there would have to be, as mentioned, some traditional rivalry games and a minimum of playing USC or UCLA every year for every team.

Nobody has mentioned this yet, but WSU is really struggling financially, and their stadium barely holds 30,000 people. I have heard some speculation that they may not be around the Pac-10 for too long, though there is no specific push for it as of yet. I could see the possibility of CU, Utah and BYU joining at the same time while WSU was dropped, thereby significantly increasing the exposure for the super-conference with the entire Utah market and the majority of the Colorado market. This scenario also helps break up the north-south problem a little bit, and would strengthen the new conference as a whole.

I know that Colorado is always the #1 desired school by Washington fans when Pac-10 expansion is brought up, FWIW...

 

[Liver]

I agree with this.

The problem, in particular, is that the traditional top powers in the Pac-10 are 1.USC 2.UW and 3.UCLA. There is no way UW will give up games with the L.A. schools due to the recruiting inroads there. A pure north-south split would be devastating for the Pacific Northwest schools.

I think there would have to be, as mentioned, some traditional rivalry games and a minimum of playing USC or UCLA every year for every team.

Nobody has mentioned this yet, but WSU is really struggling financially, and their stadium barely holds 30,000 people. I have heard some speculation that they may not be around the Pac-10 for too long, though there is no specific push for it as of yet. I could see the possibility of CU, Utah and BYU joining at the same time while WSU was dropped, thereby significantly increasing the exposure for the super-conference with the entire Utah market and the majority of the Colorado market. This scenario also helps break up the north-south problem a little bit, and would strengthen the new conference as a whole.

I know that Colorado is always the #1 desired school by Washington fans when Pac-10 expansion is brought up, FWIW...

it would be a good thing. assuming they hold on to wsu and just add utah and CU, and they don't break into divisions, it would stack up ok.

if you played 9 conf. games a year and each team had one annual "protected" rivalry game (uw/wsu, ucla/usc, etc.), then you'd be rotating 10 other conference teams through 8 annual slots. that would mean you'd only miss any particular opponent on your schedule every few years, i think.

 

[Jens1893]

Notre Dame is in kind of a risk/reward position with the BCS. CU is guaranteed a BCS payout every year since the Big 12 champ gets an automatic bid and the conference teams split a big chunk of change. Notre Dame misses out on the BCS payday when they don't make a BCS bowl, but when they do, as an independent they don't have to split they payout with anyone so it's a big windfall for them.

Of course they make loads from NBC and merchandise etc every year, so it's probably worth the gamble - and why it's so important for them to be in the hunt for the BCS every year.

You are wrong about ND. ND gets money from the BCS whether they play in a BCS game or not.

Notre Dame will now receive an automatic BCS bid if they place in the top 8 in the BCS poll. The Irish will be considered for a bid if they finish in the top 12. Notre Dame will also now received $4.5 million for playing in a BCS game and $1 million when they don't. This is a change from the previous arrangement in which the Irish received $14 million for a BCS appearance and no cash otherwise.

http://www.fanblogs.com/ncaa/005159.php

 

[Liver]

i just saw a blurb on espn that notre dame said they were definitely not interested in joining the b10 and that mizzery said they wouldn't rule it out but that they hadn't yet been approached.

no matter who the b10 adds if they expand, this could start a huge snowball rolling down the hill.

i could see several scenarios that could result in CU landing in the p10.

i so, so have my fingers crossed for this. yeah, we aren't competitive right now but recruiting would get a hell of a lot easier in california if CU were in the p10.

 

[77buff]

This info is not consistent with what I've been reading elsewhere. Not saying that it is incorrect, but what is the source? I'm also sure that distribution of the money differs from conference to conference. I've read that CU's take-away from the B12 on yearly basis is $8.5 million, but that may simply be the football money CU gets from TV deal (and not other ancillary revenue sources for the conference like bball rights, championship games, etc.) Also, we're sort of comparing apples to oranges because one of the reasons the Pac-10 would want to add CU or Utah is to add the conference championship game revenue, which could be $10-12 million/year in additional revenue.

Someone with the time and expertise should audit payouts and see whether the Pac 10, with an expiring TV deal in 2012, the possible addition of CU and Utah, and likelihood of much greater future rights fee (B12 doesn't expire until 2016), makes sense from a financial perspective over the B12.

Source is Rivals. Note this is dated a few years ago.

 

[SINKRATZ]

You are wrong about ND. ND gets money from the BCS whether they play in a BCS game or not.



http://www.fanblogs.com/ncaa/005159.php

I'm surprised they made that change (if it was their decision). If my math is right all they need to do is make it into a BCS game once every 10 years to get the better end of that deal - by taking the annual paydays they're basically betting they won't get there every 10 years.

Considering their resources, expectations, and the fact that they only need to be a top 12 team, I would think a BCS game every 10 years would be expected from Notre Dame nation.

 

[ScottyBuff]

Revenue by conference
SEC $350,193,187
Big Ten $276,809,402
Big XII $258,812,765
ACC $180,171,498
Pac 10 $176,744,243
Big East $84,659,903
Conference USA $62,565,804
WAC $34,756,625
Mountain West $53,061,049*
Notre Dame $38,596,090
MAC $25,297,901

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
Note: Data from 2003-2004 compiled using 2005 conference alignments.

Average Football Revenues per school
Notre Dame $38,596,090
SEC $35,019,318.70
Big Ten $25,164,491.09
Big XII $$21,567,730.42
Pac 10 $17,674,424.30
ACC $15,014,291.50
Big East $10,582,487.88
Mountain West $6,632,631.13*
Conference USA $5,213,817.00
WAC $3,475,662.50
MAC $2,108,158.42

* 8 teams reporting - Air Force does not release football revenues.
These figures are dated, but there is not a hell of alot of difference.
I would say Nebraska's share is alot more than Baylor or ISU.

That data is no longer relevant, and includes ALL teams gross ticket sales, licensing royalties, local media rights deals, etc (most of which is not shared between conference members). The Big 12 distributed $113.5 million amongt the 12 members last season ($9.5 million to Nebraska), that is the apples to apples number to compare with the Big Ten revenue sharing.

Since that time frame, the Big Ten has formed their own network, and signed two big contracts with ABC/ESPN and CBS

The Big Ten network deal is expected to gross $2.8 billion over 25 years, which is $112 million per year.

The ABC/ESPN deal runs through 2016 and is $100 million per season.

The CBS deal runs through the 2018-19 season and nets $2 million per season.

That is a total of $214 million per season just in conference TV contracts. Add in the bowl revenues, which the Big Ten should receive $37 million this season. There are other revenues as well. The total for the above figures $251 million amongst 11 teams for an average of $22.8 million.

The SEC also just signed that monster TV package with ESPN & CBS that will net $205 million per season.

The Big 12 is locked into its primary TV contract with ABC/ESPN until 2015-16, which generates $60 million per season. The secondary contract with Fox Sports Net grosses $19.5 million per season and expires in 2011-12.

The Pac-10s TV contracts all expire at the end of the 2011-12 season, which is also the season that ends the 4-year review period for "BCS Automatic Qualification" for conferences. The Pac-10 could prevent the MWC from gaining autobid status by picking off one their top teams, while also delivering bigger TV markets that would help them to negotiatie a more lucrative TV contract. Although it would not be in the ballpark of Big Ten / SEC type money, it could very well be much more lucrative than the Big 12 contract, despite dividing up the revenues with 12 teams as that could lead to an additional $8 to 12 million as well.

The Pac-10 also just contracted with the Alamo Bowl to host their #2 team in future years, dropping the Holiday to #3 in their lineup. That is a good step for them as their secondary bowl picture was also pretty spotty.

 

[SINKRATZ]

So there's been a lot of talk on here about how conference realignments would affect recruiting, but is it really that important?

CU already recruits better out of states like California, Arizona, Ohio, and Hawaii than we do from Iowa, Kansas, or Oklahoma and we play there every year.

How does our SoCal recruiting improve by being in the Pac 10? I guess I can see the draw of telling kids their family will get to see them play, which is probably a big deal, but is that it?

 

[Scotch]

i so, so have my fingers crossed for this. yeah, we aren't competitive right now but recruiting would get a hell of a lot easier in california if CU were in the p10.

Same.

 

[ScottyBuff]

True but UW/Wazzu are similar to us they are 300 miles apart, so that is a tough bus ride.

Yeah Wazzou is really the oddball for that conference.

I remember reading some where a few years back that the national TV crews HATE doing games there because they have such a hard time getting all the equipment and trucks to the site from a major city.

 

[White_Rabbit]

So there's been a lot of talk on here about how conference realignments would affect recruiting, but is it really that important?

CU already recruits better out of states like California, Arizona, Ohio, and Hawaii than we do from Iowa, Kansas, or Oklahoma and we play there every year.

How does our SoCal recruiting improve by being in the Pac 10? I guess I can see the draw of telling kids their family will get to see them play, which is probably a big deal, but is that it?

I would think so. A lot of these kids talk about the Pac 10 in a much higher regard than the Big 12, simply because they will be able to play in front of them more. As for why we don't recruit well in Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma etc. I don't know. It seems like the last couple of staffs we have had emphasized California more than Texas, especially the current staff. We could compete a little better with Oregon, Arizona, Washington if we were in the Pac 10 imo.

 

[Liver]

So there's been a lot of talk on here about how conference realignments would affect recruiting, but is it really that important?

CU already recruits better out of states like California, Arizona, Ohio, and Hawaii than we do from Iowa, Kansas, or Oklahoma and we play there every year.

How does our SoCal recruiting improve by being in the Pac 10? I guess I can see the draw of telling kids their family will get to see them play, which is probably a big deal, but is that it?

it is a big deal. first of all, you have to remember that on west coast time, the prime games and the most widely viewed are pac 10 games. so, when recruits are watching college fb, they are mostly seeing p10 teams.

also, the media here covers the p10 far more extensively than the other conferences.

also, as you noted, we could sell the families on being able to see the kids play more.

also, the perception that colorado is not so far away would be increased. right now, our coaches have to actually take lists of travel times with them when they visit some recruits. colorado, because it is in a different conference, is perceived to be farther from socal than, say, uw, even tho seattle is a much longer flight away.

also, on the west coast, the p10 is perceived as a much better conference academically than the b12. that helps recruiting.

also, the mythos of the rose bowl helps recruiting.

there are really quite a number of positives, imho.

 

[Scotch]

it is a big deal. first of all, you have to remember that on west coast time, the prime games and the most widely viewed are pac 10 games. so, when recruits are watching college fb, they are mostly seeing p10 teams.

also, the media here covers the p10 far more extensively than the other conferences.

also, as you noted, we could sell the families on being able to see the kids play more.

also, the perception that colorado is not so far away would be increased. right now, our coaches have to actually take lists of travel times with them when they visit some recruits. colorado, because it is in a different conference, is perceived to be farther from socal than, say, uw, even tho seattle is a much longer flight away.

also, on the west coast, the p10 is perceived as a much better conference academically than the b12. that helps recruiting.

also, the mythos of the rose bowl helps recruiting.

there are really quite a number of positives, imho.

How about donor money? I'm guessing with more exposure on the west coast it would go up.