I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until Sept 8th. Gotta win that one.
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Officially off the Macintyre bandwagon
- Thread starter Denver_sc
- Start date
FIFY. His last year at SJSU was the G5 equivalent to what we did last year.
But I do agree with the prior posters, I think that's his ceiling, unless he starts to catch recruiting religion.
Which ignores the fact he took over some of the worse programs in the game. Which also comes off as one who is fitting facts to fit an opinion already formed rather than being objective.
I always look at trajectory only. The MM trajectory has been up over time. That suggests this is an aberration, just as Utah is having.
If last year was a peak, and this is what we should expect going forward, I'd be very surprised. For MM or Whittingham.
This is the thing. The Jimmys and Joes are more important than the X's and O's.
It is amazing how many things the coaches call that work when you have better talent than the other team and how often the "right" call doesn't work when the other team has better talent than you do..
When your OL can't protect the passer you lose a lot of your offense, lose that threat and other things don't work as well. When your DL can't hold the LOS the oppenents offense can dictate the game, you give up things to compensate and get burned.
If we are going to have sustained success under MM we have to make significant improvements in recruiting OL and DL out of HS. Our track record says we are getting the job done. I think the only way we do is to replace a couple of coaches who are not carrying the load with guys who are plus recruiters.
Last year was not a peak, by all accounts, it was an anomaly. He has not grown nor sustained success. He has not turned around anything. He is 2-6. His recruiting and his assistants are a failure. At best, he is a mediocre coach who had a wonderful confluence of events last year, then back to a hot 2-6 mess this year. He has terminal flaws. He will never move this program, nor any other program, to sustained championship excellence.
When does this excuse wear out? Ever?
As to the rest, MikMac's trajectory is last place conference finishes 80% of the time. What sort of trajectory is satisfactory to you? 4 last place finishes and one first place is indicative to me that the trajectory is the cellar. One season does not trump four others.....
8Jah
Well-Known Member
If I had a dime everytime someone said, well, MM should just recruit better and then we wouldn't struggle. To me that is so off it aint even wrong. No **** it is the joes, not the X's and O's. But the thing about recruiting is that the kids get to choose in the end, not the coaches. The schools and programs are the products being sold and kids know what they are buying these days. There is the magic salesman myth, but even the best salesman can't sell me an iPhone 7 when what I want is the X.
Short of giving blow and hookers (which probably happens someplace in Texas) you can only represent your school as a recruiter so well. If we had a coach who came in here and started recruiting way beyond our current level, Mr Kroll would be running around with a three inch woody.
We beat the recruiting trail as hard as the other schools. Then we did good last year, we got a bumped up recruiting class. That's how it works. Keep that going.
IMHO what MM needs to work on is setting a ****ing fire under peoples asses so they work harder than they thought they were capable of. To me that IS what good coaching is all about. IMHO you CAN do that with a smile on your face and still be a nice guy. The blue collars have to beat the blue bloods by working harder in practice and the off-season. Our OL clearly didn't do that. Our whole D, save a few, clearly didn't do that. Our QB clearly didn't do that.
One man in the last few years clearly understood that. When listening to certain coaches and players get praised said "yeah but youve got to work!" Yes he was the asshole who left and **** him. ...but there is nothing wrong in learning from effective folks, even if they are assholes.
Short of giving blow and hookers (which probably happens someplace in Texas) you can only represent your school as a recruiter so well. If we had a coach who came in here and started recruiting way beyond our current level, Mr Kroll would be running around with a three inch woody.
We beat the recruiting trail as hard as the other schools. Then we did good last year, we got a bumped up recruiting class. That's how it works. Keep that going.
IMHO what MM needs to work on is setting a ****ing fire under peoples asses so they work harder than they thought they were capable of. To me that IS what good coaching is all about. IMHO you CAN do that with a smile on your face and still be a nice guy. The blue collars have to beat the blue bloods by working harder in practice and the off-season. Our OL clearly didn't do that. Our whole D, save a few, clearly didn't do that. Our QB clearly didn't do that.
One man in the last few years clearly understood that. When listening to certain coaches and players get praised said "yeah but youve got to work!" Yes he was the asshole who left and **** him. ...but there is nothing wrong in learning from effective folks, even if they are assholes.
He parlayed all that COY goodwill, P12S Championship, new facilities, opportunities for staff changes from a position of strenght into a 2-6 season, potentially winless in the P12S, a crap recruiting class and a bunch of JV assistants, one of which was demoted at Kentucky in year five. I’m with you lefty. He’s a career 0.307 conference coach for a reason.
Just not true. This staff is abysmal at recruiting. You read Meatmarket? The big boys recruiting skills are at a while different level. This staff has one of those. Maybe two.
We actually saw a significant bump BEFORE the season started last year.
Recruiting is about prioritizing and having a plan. MM was content with poor Texas recruiting for his first couple years because it was not a priority to him. Do you really think improved play changed the trajectory in Texas recruiting or was that it was some crazy coincidence we started recruiting better in Texas once Chev arrived?
Your "we are a blue collar school so we have to recruit like a blue collar school" is a self-fulfilling prophecy which absolves ineffective recruiters of any responsibility for talent issues.
We haven't beat the recruiting trail as hard as the other schools, we have some assistants who everyone knows don't put the effort in on the recruiting trail.
Recruiting is sales. We have some posters on this site who are sales professionals, they can tell you about the times they got the sale even when the competition had a better product or offer because they were better sales people. Generally speaking one of the characteristics of the most successful sales people is that they work harder than their competition. Just the way it is.
Another characteristic of highly successful sales people is they have some ego, they shoot high instead of being happy with the easy sales, this staff has had a tendency towards settling for the easy sale instead of closing the big deal.
Fact is that we aren't SC and we haven't had the on field success recently of Washington but there is no reason that we aren't recruiting at least close to the rest of the schools in our conference. We aren't
8Jah
Well-Known Member
We actually saw a significant bump BEFORE the season started last year. We had a few of the instate kids early from a bumper year in Colorado...then we picked up the rest of the good recruiting class during our awesome year.
Do you really think improved play changed the trajectory in Texas recruiting or was that it was some crazy coincidence we started recruiting better in Texas once Chev arrived? I think Chev knew some of those kids from his time at Texas Tech and then CU had a good year like I said. He hasn't done as well tis year.
Your "we are a blue collar school so we have to recruit like a blue collar school" is a self-fulfilling prophecy which absolves ineffective recruiters of any responsibility for talent issues. I didn't say we are a blue collar school I said we have blue collar players playing against blue chip players from other successful PAC12 programs. That isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy, THAT IS REALITY. These guys have to work harder in order to win against better players. As we build a reputation of success, then we get better recruits.
Do you really think improved play changed the trajectory in Texas recruiting or was that it was some crazy coincidence we started recruiting better in Texas once Chev arrived? I think Chev knew some of those kids from his time at Texas Tech and then CU had a good year like I said. He hasn't done as well tis year.
Your "we are a blue collar school so we have to recruit like a blue collar school" is a self-fulfilling prophecy which absolves ineffective recruiters of any responsibility for talent issues. I didn't say we are a blue collar school I said we have blue collar players playing against blue chip players from other successful PAC12 programs. That isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy, THAT IS REALITY. These guys have to work harder in order to win against better players. As we build a reputation of success, then we get better recruits.
It's not an excuse.
Every year was better than the year before. EVERYONE saw that we were getting better, losing by much less, etc. The facts stand for themselves.
The facts show we were the worst team in FBS, we have steadily improved and 2017 is a drop back and disappointment. You question Trajectory? Most people can agree that Kyle Whittingham is one of the top 3 coaches in the conference if not the West. Yet his Utah team is 5-6 this year. His team wasn't getting blown out 5 years ago. Mac's record improvement since his arrival is much better than Whittinghams' in the same period.
I'm not sure he made the right hires and he absolutely needs to make some long overdue changes. But....
Last year's recruiting class looks awesome on paper and this years looks much better than any before 2017. Is it good enough? Not sure.
Most program builds are not linear projects. Slips are somewhat expected. Hell, I would have fired Richrod last year.... There you go.
Name all the coaches who have won championships in two different P5 conferences.
Think about it a bit, I'm pretty sure there's three names on that list.
Now, are you really that confident MM is on that level?
Agree with your timeline, but don't understand how we recruited so well when "the Rise" was a dream, and recruited worse once it became a reality. The whole staff including Chev. Was puzzled that he could sell "the Rise" in the first place as well as he did and then perplexed that it lost it's luster after we showed it.
Tyler Lytle
Jaylon Jackson
Laviska Shenault
Will Sherman
Grant Polley
Chris Miller
Maurice Bell
Those guys all committed before the season. Additionally, guys like Daniels, Newman, and Nixon were showing heavy interest before the wins came. So yes, a big recruiting bump despite a poor record in 2015.
You completely absolve assistant coaches of recruiting responsibility, especially Jeffcoat in particular, for no reason. It is vital at this level and I sincerely hope MM understands this much more than you do. Just shrugging shoulders and saying "the talent is what it is" is an attitude that will get this program nowhere.
8Jah
Well-Known Member
Its the magic salesman fallacy. People aren't stupid - the product has to be there. Even salesmen know that. Among similar products the best salesmen wins. There is a big difference in product between the different P5 schools. College football is about inequality of product!
We do recruit as good or better than alot of the conference. We recruit no worse than WSU, Oregon State, Cal, Arizona and Utah. ...about middle of the pack and we did have that terrible decade and we are also far away up in the mountains for these kids. That tells me we are not slouching in recruiting relative to our peers. To do better we need to play better for a couple of years.
8Jah
Well-Known Member
Tyler Lytle - highly rated, lightly recruited outside CU.
Jaylon Jackson - lightly recruited as senior (after two injuries) outside of CU
Laviska Shenault - Good get
Will Sherman - would never have stayed without a good season.
Grant Polley - barely stayed - good season kept him.
Chris Miller - lightly recruited before he blew up. Good season certainly kept him.
Maurice Bell - highly ranked, not strongly recruited. don't know if we would have kept him w/o season
These guys were also taking there visits and doing camps when they could see our 2016 team before we could. Everyone knew last summer they had something.
Jaylon Jackson - lightly recruited as senior (after two injuries) outside of CU
Laviska Shenault - Good get
Will Sherman - would never have stayed without a good season.
Grant Polley - barely stayed - good season kept him.
Chris Miller - lightly recruited before he blew up. Good season certainly kept him.
Maurice Bell - highly ranked, not strongly recruited. don't know if we would have kept him w/o season
These guys were also taking there visits and doing camps when they could see our 2016 team before we could. Everyone knew last summer they had something.
Um, no. We don't recruit middle of our conference. We have approached that the last couple classes but mostly we have been bottom 3.
Simple fact is that the if you look at the teams who are consistently ranked in the top 25 they are recruiting at least top 35. We have not been there.
And it isn't a magic salesman fallacy. Teams that develop into top teams recruit their way there. The fantasy of the hidden talent and develop your way to the top has been consistently disproved.
We now have facilities, we have one of the nicest campuses in the country, we have a great education, we are putting guys into the pros. Our assistant coaches need to be better salesmen than they are
I will tell you clearly, if you don't think that there is a difference in the effectiveness of salesmen then you have not been in the business. The product matters, the man promoting the product matters more.
It’s all about the relationship.
FIFY.
Some of them don't.
There are some guys on the staff (in fact, most of them), who work the trail hard, and show enthusiasm for recruits. Some of them have more success than others, but very few people here criticize the guys who work hard and have a little less success than the others.
And then there's these two guys. One of them visits with and even impresses lots of high school coaches - they'll even give him tips "hey, you should look at this kid, he's pretty good." But when it comes to connecting with the kids, you know, the actual recruits, he comes across as laid back and "chill," which frequently reads to the recruits as "not as interested in me as the coaches at x school who are really enthusiastic about me going there." Guess where they end up?
The other one seems to take the approach of "he's got the right frame, and some natural ability, get him in the weight room and coach him for 3 years and he'll develop into a serviceable lineman. Oh, wow, look I've filled my class up with guys like that, guess I'm done till next year."
Replace those guys with average P5 recruiters 3 years ago, and we're probably sitting at 7-4 right now.
jizzrag85
Well-Known Member
Here’s my reality. I have absolutely no idea who is or isn’t a good recruiter on this staff. I don’t know if wins will bring better recruits, if facilities will, if coaches will. All I know is we need better players otherwise we will be a bottom 6 team in the PAC12 almost every year. But I want to believe that last years class and this years class are a bump in the right direction. Right now recruiting isn’t good enough to be a perennial top 25 team.
8Jah
Well-Known Member
Once you get outside the top thirty in recruiting classes, the recruiting rankings are worthless! Is the 91st recruiting class really better than the 113th? Is the 41st better than the 53rd? By what standards can the recruiting service say this low three start was better than that high two star? No one knows. So yes we have done no worse in recruiting than the second half of our conference over the past few years.
Its not that I don't believe recruiting is important. Recruiting is major important. It is just that you have to work your way up the recruiting ladder. People on this board know about the 90s, but to the rest of the world we aren't Notre Dame or Alabama or USC or Miami! You just can't expect some slick-rick to come in and get you 5star kids that wouldn't even have given you a look before. That's magical thinking. First you have to work.
Its not that I don't believe recruiting is important. Recruiting is major important. It is just that you have to work your way up the recruiting ladder. People on this board know about the 90s, but to the rest of the world we aren't Notre Dame or Alabama or USC or Miami! You just can't expect some slick-rick to come in and get you 5star kids that wouldn't even have given you a look before. That's magical thinking. First you have to work.
Very well said and completely accurate, IMO. CU needs to move on after this season, or mediocrity or worse will just continue. He won’t be here long in any event.
You are basically saying there is no difference between the 2017 class and the 2014 class because they are both outside the Top 30. There absolutely is a difference between 2* and 3* players, and a difference between low 3*players and high 3* players.
No one expects to recruit at USC's level. Why is that trotted out in every defense of crappy recruiting?
Those classes are better. I think Adam is probably getting better guys than Bernardi did. But OL are the last recruits to actually hit the field, so the jury will likely be out for one more year.
It's really hard for anyone to make an argument that the DL are any better in the last two classes than the prior two.
If we had been effectively recruiting HS DL we wouldn't have had to play the last two seasons with a bunch of JUCOs as band-aids.
Last years DL Was Sampson, a recruit from the prior staff still around due to a discipline issue, Tupou, the same situation, and Carroll a JUCO brought in to fill a hole.
This year we have three JUCOs recruited to fill because again we don't have HS recruits on the roster good enough to play.
Can't do that every year, something has to get fixed.