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Pac 12 players threaten opt-out of 2020 CFB season unless health and safety and other demands are met

TSchekler said:
Ha, even better argument. So you actually believe the reason CFB players are not currently receiving fair compensation is because 63% are black and there is a racist agenda?
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Hmmm, of the 4 major professional sports leagues in this country, 2 (baseball and hockey) have well-established minor league systems. If a teenaged athlete wants to earn money playing baseball or hockey, all he has to do is sign a contract. No such systems exists for football or basketball (though with international leagues and the G League, there are now some opportunities in basketball). I wonder what the racial makeup of hockey and baseball players is as compared to basketball and football.
 
Buffalumni said:
This is a good movie but the notion is incredibly racist.

For reference: the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.
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I'm not sure that's the definition of 'racist' that most people use.

if that's the definition of 'racist' then I'm dfeinately racist as I believe that blacks possess abilities at running which distringuish them as supeerior to other races. This belief is based on data (one point: marathon record holders)
 
Denver_sc said:
You are right; most (!56%) of D1 athletes are white.

However, I 've seen the argument over and over again that if we pay football players that it will negatively impact other sports because the other sports (outside of Men's Basketball) don't produce a profit. In fact, that's pretty much always been the case- one example from this article shows that LSU's football program counted for nearly $100M of LSU's $145M AD revenue in 2018. Further, LSU only accounts $12M of their $37M from media sharing to football- if it was more accurate, it would not be a stretch to say that football accounts for ~$112M of $145M in revenue, which is north of 77%.

Guess what? Only 37% of D1 football players are white. Moreover, men's basketball is the only other program at nearly all D1 schools that turns a profit. Only 23% of D1 men's basketball players are white.

When the vast majority of revenue comes from those two sports, and yet those athletes receive the same benefits as other athletes it's accurate to use the word "subjugation" to describe what's being done to those athetes' bodies, and it's even more stark when you think that the revenues football and basketball athletes produce are being used to provide benefits to other student athletes, the vast majority of whom are white.

I guess you got me, though- black players only just under half the players in those sports. I guess I should have said "predominantly black bodies" instead of "mostly black bodies."
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In 2019, there were 22,596 whites, 20,344 blacks, and 8,882 others in the 5 major revenue generating sports. Football, men’s basketball, hockey, baseball and women’s basketball.

This to me becomes not an issue with amateur athletics, but with the morality and legality of Title IX to be addressed by worthless Pols. If we could get rid of title IX, which is a sexist affirmation of separate but equal segregation, then free up all that money to ‘compensate/stipend/pay’ in a way that could be more optically palatable to the actual revenue generators, regardless of race, ethnicity, sex, etc.

Or hand the student a 600k check, show that to the media, then itemize all their tuition, books, room and board, tutors, academic support and make them actually ‘see’ the value. This is just a pure optics PC game. So I’d fight back if I was management. Unfortunately the landscape is so fragmented and without a strong unified NCAA and set of member schools, the college athletics we adore is an easy PC target for the 4th grade mentality of the media and populace.
Until then, and I am not an ardent supporter of MAGA, but this coined phrase of #fakenews applies.
 
BuffsNYC said:
Hmmm, of the 4 major professional sports leagues in this country, 2 (baseball and hockey) have well-established minor league systems. If a teenaged athlete wants to earn money playing baseball or hockey, all he has to do is sign a contract. No such systems exists for football or basketball (though with international leagues and the G League, there are now some opportunities in basketball). I wonder what the racial makeup of hockey and baseball players is as compared to basketball and football.
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Cool story, bro. What does that have to do with the challenges and hurdles of providing fair compensation for CFB players?
 
BuffsNYC said:
Good argument. :rolleyes:

All else being equal, if 100% of CFB players were white, maybe they'd already be getting paid.
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There it is. It’s the white mans fault the NCAA doesn’t pay the black athlete. I appreciate you confirming what I’ve been saying all along. It isn’t about actual racism, facts or change or making a point, it’s just about pointing fingers and assigning blame with no merit. It’s a baseless claim that does nothing to fix the issues with this country, it just furthers the divide in which if something isn’t fair, it’s automatically somehow racist. It’s not like they’ve been giving out athletic scholarships for 70 years or anything. Side note, did you know only white guys played for 15 years on non-paid athletic scholarships before 1967? Then you know the slow shift between mostly white to mixed, to split to the majority black. It’s just 2020 when it’s majority black athletes is it now racist they’re STILL not getting paid.

Excuse me while I go see if I can find my 2020 edition of, “NCAA: how to exploit the black athlete for financial gain.” I’m pretty sure CU sent that with my season tickets.
 
TSchekler said:
Cool story, bro. What does that have to do with the challenges and hurdles of providing fair compensation for CFB players?
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We wouldn't be having this discussion if teenagers who play football had someplace other than a university to compete at the highest level. Did the DU Hockey team ask to be paid?

You seem to want to ignore all the circumstances that make college football unique. It's just dumb to pretend that it's not the only opportunity for a high-level high school athlete to continue to play the sport. It's also dumb to pretend that it doesn't generate billions of dollars in TV and ticket money. No other college sport combines those two circumstances and that's why we're having this discussion.
 
Buffalumni said:
There it is. It’s the white mans fault the NCAA doesn’t pay the black athlete. I appreciate you confirming what I’ve been saying all along. It isn’t about actual racism, facts or change or making a point, it’s just about pointing fingers and assigning blame with no merit. It’s a baseless claim that does nothing to fix the issues with this country, it just furthers the divide in which if something isn’t fair, it’s automatically somehow racist. It’s not like they’ve been giving out athletic scholarships for 70 years or anything. Side note, did you know only white guys played for 15 years on non-paid athletic scholarships before 1967? Then you know the slow shift between mostly white to mixed, to split to the majority black. It’s just 2020 when it’s majority black athletes is it now racist they’re STILL not getting paid.

Excuse me while I go see if I can find my 2020 edition of, “NCAA: how to exploit the black athlete for financial gain.” I’m pretty sure CU sent that with my season tickets.
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You seem pretty fragile. Maybe you should take some time off.
 
hokiehead said:
I'm not sure that's the definition of 'racist' that most people use.

if that's the definition of 'racist' then I'm dfeinately racist as I believe that blacks possess abilities at running which distringuish them as supeerior to other races. This belief is based on data (one point: marathon record holders)
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The definition is what it is, I don’t disagree with you about the runners though. The point was claiming black athletes are superior is ignoring the actual truth. The truth that racist America and racial inequality has led to less opportunities to them growing up. Leading them to believe that football and basketball, which are the most accessible in America, are going to be the way they make it to an education or extreme wealth.
 
BuffsNYC said:
We wouldn't be having this discussion if teenagers who play football had someplace other than a university to compete at the highest level. Did the DU Hockey team ask to be paid?

You seem to want to ignore all the circumstances that make college football unique. It's just dumb to pretend that it's not the only opportunity for a high-level high school athlete to continue to play the sport. It's also dumb to pretend that it doesn't generate billions of dollars in TV and ticket money. No other college sport combines those two circumstances and that's why we're having this discussion.
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Finally we agree! I have not ignored anything you've said, in fact, this has been part of my argument throughout this thread. Football players don't have much leverage in this discussion because CFB is their only avenue to the NFL. The NFL could create a minor league system, but it wouldn't make any money, nobody would watch, the players would never be famous, none of them would get a college education, and a lot more would wash out than they otherwise would have had they gone through the collegiate system and actually had time to physically and mentally develop.

You're also comparing apples to oranges when comparing the other three sports to football. There are massive differences.
 
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You get paid absolute dog **** in the minor leagues in baseball so that doesn’t seem like a great example of it working. If CU budgets 100,000 per year a scholarship athlete they are also almost always making less at the minor league level in hockey than at a division 1 school. But good try to make that one about race.
 
onealcd said:
You get paid absolute dog **** in the minor leagues in baseball so that doesn’t seem like a great example of it working. If CU budgets 100,000 per year a scholarship athlete they are also almost always making less at the minor league level in hockey than at a division 1 school. But good try to make that one about race.
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Yep! $290-500 a week and capped at $1,100 a month for their first season. Don’t forget the busses, CU could save loads of money traveling by bus and giving the money back to the kids.
 
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onealcd said:
You get paid absolute dog **** in the minor leagues in baseball so that doesn’t seem like a great example of it working. If CU budgets 100,000 per year a scholarship athlete they are also almost always making less at the minor league level in hockey than at a division 1 school. But good try to make that one about race.
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But they have the choice, no? And that's the difference. I would have no problem telling a college hockey or baseball player who asked to be paid that a scholarship plus room and board is enough--because he at least has the option to offer his athletic services on the open market (such as it is). No such market exists for teenage football players.
 
Buffalumni said:
Not quite as good and not nearly as good as your hilarious insinuation that NCAA players aren’t paid because they’re not white based off nothing but your own ignorance.
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I see you didn't like your original strawman so you decided to add onto it. Good luck with that.
 
BuffsNYC said:
I see you didn't like your original strawman so you decided to add onto it. Good luck with that.
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Oh no that was all there in the first post, nothing added. Calling it a straw man is a cute way of saying, “I have no rebuttal because I know I’m wrong.”

Unless you have facts to back your claims? I didn’t think so.
 
BuffsNYC said:
But they have the choice, no? And that's the difference. I would have no problem telling a college hockey or baseball player who asked to be paid that a scholarship plus room and board is enough--because he at least has the option to offer his athletic services on the open market (such as it is). No such market exists for teenage football players.
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Sounds like you should go talk to the NFL then.
 
BuffsNYC said:
We wouldn't be having this discussion if teenagers who play football had someplace other than a university to compete at the highest level. Did the DU Hockey team ask to be paid?

You seem to want to ignore all the circumstances that make college football unique. It's just dumb to pretend that it's not the only opportunity for a high-level high school athlete to continue to play the sport. It's also dumb to pretend that it doesn't generate billions of dollars in TV and ticket money. No other college sport combines those two circumstances and that's why we're having this discussion.
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I don’t think you understand how the NHL farm system is structured.
 
Buffalumni said:
Oh no that was all there in the first post, nothing added. Calling it a straw man is a cute way of saying, “I have no rebuttal because I know I’m wrong.”

Unless you have facts to back your claims? I didn’t think so.
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You recognize that this message board has a quote feature, right? So instead of you providing what you think I said, you can just quote the actual words.
 
BuffsNYC said:
Good argument. :rolleyes:

All else being equal, if 100% of CFB players were white, maybe they'd already be getting paid.
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BuffsNYC said:
You recognize that this message board has a quote feature, right? So instead of you providing what you think I said, you can just quote the actual words.
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Good idea! So then your post isn’t saying they’re not paid because they’re black? Because I’m pretty sure it says they would be “maybe” getting paid if they were “100% white.” I could be misconstruing your point here but I take that as you’re implying they refuse to pay anybody unless they’re all white.
 
BuffsNYC said:
I lived on the DU hockey dorm wing as a freshman. Most of those guys were 20+ year old freshman who had chosen to forego (or pause) professional careers.
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You don't forego the professional career. The NHL drafts based on birth year (basically when the kid turns 18). From there the club owns the player's rights for a short period, I believe 3 years. Based on the talent level of the kid and the needs of the club, the player will go straight to the NHL (Sidney Crosby), the AHL (next step down), or they can choose to go to college (do not get paid). If they get stashed in college but never perform well enough there to get pulled up by the big club or AHL, they may never make a dime.

My point is that all sports systems have flaws and many people fall through the cracks. The MLB and NHL are no different. The only reason there isn't a minor league for football is because it would be too damn expensive to run. All in all I would say that 95% of college football players get a pretty good deal. 5% have to wait two years in order to get their market value.
 
Ultimately, if you start paying players, they will always want more and more of the pie until athletic departments have to fold. I am not sure I would blame someone for that either. There is a breaking point here and ultimately some don't care just as long as they get theirs.

There are guys who sign out of high school for millions of dollars in mlb. Why can't this work for football? That's because the NFL is cheap and won't do it. However, I really think the P5's need to put a massive amount of pressure on the NFL to start this minor league system. One thing a college can do is give out stipends, insurance, and other benefits. Paying them is extremely difficult because now they are employees. I just think if you start paying in a college setting, a broken system will become more broke until there is no system left.
 
I’ve been thinking about the brand names in college football. One thing they have in common: they have or continue to...

pay players.
 
patebuff said:
Ultimately, if you start paying players, they will always want more and more of the pie until athletic departments have to fold. I am not sure I would blame someone for that either. There is a breaking point here and ultimately some don't care just as long as they get theirs.

There are guys who sign out of high school for millions of dollars in mlb. Why can't this work for football? That's because the NFL is cheap and won't do it. However, I really think the P5's need to put a massive amount of pressure on the NFL to start this minor league system. One thing a college can do is give out stipends, insurance, and other benefits. Paying them is extremely difficult because now they are employees. I just think if you start paying in a college setting, a broken system will become more broke until there is no system left.
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Yup, NFL is cheap, they would never offer that. Unfortunately, the NFL is a game you can’t play at a professional level when you’re 18 otherwise these kids could skip college. Maybe there’s an exception of crazy athletic 18 year olds but for the most part they need the college time to mature.
 
Buffalumni said:
Yup, NFL is cheap, they would never offer that. Unfortunately, the NFL is a game you can’t play at a professional level when you’re 18 otherwise these kids could skip college. Maybe there’s an exception of crazy athletic 18 year olds but for the most part they need the college time to mature.
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Colleges have a lot of blame in the system that we have right now and the players are taking all of the risk. It really boils down to a couple issues. Coaches salaries and facilities. That is where majority of the money is going to. If you put at least a quarter of that money back to the student athlete in a higher stipend, benefits, insurance, etc. I think that is about as good of a system as you could hope for. They also now have the ability to get paid on their image and likeness. The student athlete is also getting School paid for. Then if there was a minor league system, you give everyone that option as well.

Hell, I would bet anything that a lot of these student athletes would find that a system like the above would be better than anything they find the rest of their lives, except for playing professionally.

Ultimately, if they ever start paying players, it won't be very much. Schools can't take on what they already are, plus a salary and insurance. I think the student athletes will find that 10-20,000 a year was a stupid choice when the School has to take out everything else. Then facilities will deteriorate along with everything else and we are back to this same discussion in 10 years.
 
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