2018 Defense

[ScottyBuff]

I see a lot of ignorant stuff with DL and I don't think people appreciate how quick twitch and agile DLs are at this level. But I still see people posting things like Casey Roddick should be moved to NT because of how big he is.

In the interest of being objective, what physical skill sets do you think a NT in our defense needs to have? Set aside technique because that requires development/coaching/etc.

Strong upper body to shed blockers (size helps). Strong lower body to hold ground at point of attack (size helps). Plays with great leverage (size helps). Agility. Great footwork. Quick Burst. Plays agressive?

My comment on Roddick was partly tongue-in-cheek and partly wishful thinking. It wasn't ignorant. I don't get a chance to watch more than a smattering of recruits highlights but what I see in those vids is exactly all of the above. For a very large HS OL he has great leverage, excellent footwork and agility, and is extremely violent (in a good football way). Those are all the attributes that a NT needs to have to command double-teams and effectively penetrate them.

Now, does he have the technique perfected today? Of course not. Could they coach him up?

If so, where would he be more valuable to CU? In a group of underclassmen linemen that contains Grant Polley, Will Sherman, Kanan Ray, Jake Moretti, Chance Lytle, and Heston Paige or in a group with only Jalen Sami on the roster?

If not? no biggie it's just a fan forum.

 

[Buffnik]

In the interest of being objective, what physical skill sets do you think a NT in our defense needs to have? Set aside technique because that requires development/coaching/etc.

Strong upper body to shed blockers (size helps). Strong lower body to hold ground at point of attack (size helps). Plays with great leverage (size helps). Agility. Great footwork. Quick Burst. Plays agressive?

My comment on Roddick was partly tongue-in-cheek and partly wishful thinking. It wasn't ignorant. I don't get a chance to watch more than a smattering of recruits highlights but what I see in those vids is exactly all of the above. For a very large HS OL he has great leverage, excellent footwork and agility, and is extremely violent (in a good football way). Those are all the attributes that a NT needs to have to command double-teams and effectively penetrate them.

Now, does he have the technique perfected today? Of course not. Could they coach him up?

If so, where would he be more valuable to CU? In a group of underclassmen linemen that contains Grant Polley, Will Sherman, Kanan Ray, Jake Moretti, Chance Lytle, and Heston Paige or in a group with only Jalen Sami on the roster?

If not? no biggie it's just a fan forum.

OLs are more straight line power. DLs are more about change of direction and being able to run fast in short bursts (including a 3-4 NT). I love Casey's film. But it reads 100% OL to me. On a run play, he's got a direction he's going. If you're in front of him and he gets his hands on you, he's going to take you along for a ride in the direction he's going. And in pass protection, he's a human wall. But I don't see the lateral agility speed to play OT in college, let alone play on the DL.

For those of you who haven't watched his senior film.... enjoy. He's got the potential to be one hell of an OG here.

 

[JOEinDenver]

It is great to see the size differences in the OL recruits compared to 5-6 years ago. Like what happened at CU in the late 70’s and we see how that turned out for the 80’s. Men playing the line leading to a NC.

 

[BuffLuke80]

The whole Bish thing is a joke. Refuses to move? Do we know if the staff has asked him? Do we know if he would ever be a good LB? Or is that the AllBuffs expert talent evaluators talking?

I don't know on the first two questions. He couldn't do any worse than at rb for #3. On #4, doesn't take an expert to see the guy isn't a rb at this level.

 

[Buffnik]

The whole Bish thing is a joke. Refuses to move? Do we know if the staff has asked him? Do we know if he would ever be a good LB? Or is that the AllBuffs expert talent evaluators talking?

Leavitt tried to get Bish to make the position switch. http://www.buffzone.com/football-cubuffs/ci_30823598/bisharat-ready-carry-bigger-load-buffs

I can't find it, but there was something else where one of the coaches (maybe MacIntyre) said something about how Bish could make the NFL as a linebacker.

 

[8Jah]

I am not selling it short at all. Everything you said is what it means to be stout and not allow any progress in the middle of the field. The 3-4 NT is the hardest position in defense, but yet has no pass rush responsibility.

The essential idea behind the 3-4 is that you move pass rush responsibilities to the LBs especially the OLBs so that you can better disguise and vary the pass rush.

It's not just that in a 3-4. You are selling it so short on what they actually do. Maintaining a gap in the run game isn't just being a load who anchors in place. Those guys are asked to re-set the line of scrimmage (or at least maintain it), often against double teams, while sliding to the ball to maintain their gaps (those gaps move during the play) and keeping leverage to get off blocks. They also have to collapse the pocket in the pass game. The agility, quick hands and burst they need to do this is impressive. They are not there to be giant boulders we plop down on the field in the spot they lined up. Just because they do a ton of dirty work to keep the LBs clean so that they get to make a lot of plays and get the glory, let's not disrespect what they do and what it takes to be good at it.

 

[8Jah]

Double post

 

[Buffnik]

I am not selling it short at all. Everything you said is what it means to be stout and not allow any progress in the middle of the field. The 3-4 NT is the hardest position in defense, but yet has no pass rush responsibility.

The essential idea behind the 3-4 is that you move pass rush responsibilities to the LBs especially the OLBs so that you can better disguise and vary the pass rush.


m not

The NT has pass rush responsibilities. At the very least, he's got to collapse the pocket back so the QB can't step up, has a smaller throwing window, and can't take off and run.

Beyond that, you want him to be able to do all that off a stunt which clears out room for one of ILBs to rush up the middle unblocked. And it sounds very much like Eliot wants to see our NTs doing more one-gap shooting this year outside of only doing that on obvious passing downs when Franke would come in.

A NT is not just a giant boulder plopped down over center. It's the most difficult and key position in the entire defensive scheme. Much of that, yes, is occupying 2 blockers to keep things clean for the LBs to run while also eliminating the zero and A gaps is the basic requirement. But to be good, that NT has to be able to flow to the ball while occupying those blockers in order to eliminate cutback lanes. And a great NT in a 3-4 is even going to re-set the LOS a yard into the backfield to throw off the timing of everything the offense is trying to do with its runs. (Plus the pass rush things I mentioned.)

As stated previously, Javier Edwards has every tool to be good or great as a NT. He had fitness and technique issues his first year in it, though. It seems like some of you think the solution to the struggles there is to find a guy who is smaller, less athletic, weaker and less experienced than Javier to try to play his position. Which makes no sense if all it takes is some big load of a man to anchor in place because Javier is the biggest DL in program history while also being one of the strongest guys in the weight room.

 

[8Jah]

Again, I violently agree with every word of your third paragraph. An NT is not just a big boulder. Being stout means way more than that. It takes a lot of skill movement and ability to move around in short space so that nyou clog the middle of the field and pluck off blockers for the Mike. There is varied gap responsibility that takes lateral explosiveness. An NT should have the strength skill and balance to hold a center in place and reach out with the other hand to tackle a running back. Moving the OL back should be the goal of the DL.

The thing is that the 3-4 works at a baseline level if the DL is stout and controls the LOS. The fact that we see exceptional 3-4 Luneman in the NFL who can do everything required of them and get sacks every game shouldn’t set our expectations at the college level. Those guys are massively rare.

The NT has pass rush responsibilities. At the very least, he's got to collapse the pocket back so the QB can't step up, has a smaller throwing window, and can't take off and run.

Beyond that, you want him to be able to do all that off a stunt which clears out room for one of ILBs to rush up the middle unblocked. And it sounds very much like Eliot wants to see our NTs doing more one-gap shooting this year outside of only doing that on obvious passing downs when Franke would come in.

A NT is not just a giant boulder plopped down over center. It's the most difficult and key position in the entire defensive scheme. Much of that, yes, is occupying 2 blockers to keep things clean for the LBs to run while also eliminating the zero and A gaps is the basic requirement. But to be good, that NT has to be able to flow to the ball while occupying those blockers in order to eliminate cutback lanes. And a great NT in a 3-4 is even going to re-set the LOS a yard into the backfield to throw off the timing of everything the offense is trying to do with its runs. (Plus the pass rush things I mentioned.)

As stated previously, Javier Edwards has every tool to be good or great as a NT. He had fitness and technique issues his first year in it, though. It seems like some of you think the solution to the struggles there is to find a guy who is smaller, less athletic, weaker and less experienced than Javier to try to play his position. Which makes no sense if all it takes is some big load of a man to anchor in place because Javier is the biggest DL in program history while also being one of the strongest guys in the weight room.

,

 

[BuffLuke80]

Nik is right on this. Some NT's move around too. Seems like people think it's just some gigantic dude you plug in the middle and that's all they do is occupy blocks. Little more to it than that. I wasn't talking to you 8Jah, just chiming in is all.

 

[Buffnik]

Again, I violently agree with every word of your third paragraph. An NT is not just a big boulder. Being stout means way more than that. It takes a lot of skill movement and ability to move around in short space so that nyou clog the middle of the field and pluck off blockers for the Mike. There is varied gap responsibility that takes lateral explosiveness. An NT should have the strength skill and balance to hold a center in place and reach out with the other hand to tackle a running back. Moving the OL back should be the goal of the DL.

The thing is that the 3-4 works at a baseline level if the DL is stout and controls the LOS. The fact that we see exceptional 3-4 Luneman in the NFL who can do everything required of them and get sacks every game shouldn’t set our expectations at the college level. Those guys are massively rare.



,

I'm making the argument that a NT is not just a big boulder. That's my whole damn point. I'm arguing against this suggestion I keep seeing that we should just move whomever to NT because he's a big, powerful guy.

I think the position is so difficult, though, that we can never be in a situation again where it's all hinging on a JUCO transfer who has never played 3-4 NT or a high school recruit coming in. Even a guy with all the physical traits has to be developed for that spot.

 

[MtnBuff]

The NT has pass rush responsibilities. At the very least, he's got to collapse the pocket back so the QB can't step up, has a smaller throwing window, and can't take off and run.

Beyond that, you want him to be able to do all that off a stunt which clears out room for one of ILBs to rush up the middle unblocked. And it sounds very much like Eliot wants to see our NTs doing more one-gap shooting this year outside of only doing that on obvious passing downs when Franke would come in.

A NT is not just a giant boulder plopped down over center. It's the most difficult and key position in the entire defensive scheme. Much of that, yes, is occupying 2 blockers to keep things clean for the LBs to run while also eliminating the zero and A gaps is the basic requirement. But to be good, that NT has to be able to flow to the ball while occupying those blockers in order to eliminate cutback lanes. And a great NT in a 3-4 is even going to re-set the LOS a yard into the backfield to throw off the timing of everything the offense is trying to do with its runs. (Plus the pass rush things I mentioned.)

As stated previously, Javier Edwards has every tool to be good or great as a NT. He had fitness and technique issues his first year in it, though. It seems like some of you think the solution to the struggles there is to find a guy who is smaller, less athletic, weaker and less experienced than Javier to try to play his position. Which makes no sense if all it takes is some big load of a man to anchor in place because Javier is the biggest DL in program history while also being one of the strongest guys in the weight room.

Javier in his college highlights showed every sign of being an above average athlete for a man that big. Even in spring ball he showed signs that he had athletic ability. It was just fooling around and having fun but in the spring "game" when they had the linemen covering each other on pass routes to the end zone he did it as well as some ILBs might changing directions quickly and getting to the spot.

Watching him play this past season I saw a guy who had eaten himself out of shape. He lost that explosion on the first step, he had a hard time staying low enough to maintain leverage. On a lot of plays guys were into him before he could get up out of his stance and moved him around.

Apparently he is working hard this off-season. He should be motivated because his shot at an NFL training camp depends on it. If he can lose 30-50lbs from where he was at the end of last season he will still be a very big man but I think he will also regain the quickness and flexibility to dominate playing over the center.

If that happens it may be the single most important improvement to our entire defense this season.

 

[BuffLuke80]

50 pounds is alot. Does anybody know what his legit weight was besides the staff? I said several times he was over weight last year. You still need a gas tank no matter how big and strong you are. You get tired in a few series at high altitude, good luck with that. I just don't think he was in shape period. Hopefully, he's adjusted since then.

 

[MtnBuff]

50 pounds is alot. Does anybody know what his legit weight was besides the staff? I said several times he was over weight last year. You still need a gas tank no matter how big and strong you are. You get tired in a few series at high altitude, good luck with that. I just don't think he was in shape period. Hopefully, he's adjusted since then.

I never heard anything official but there it came from a number of places including some teammates off the record that he was north of 380.

50lbs is a lot but you are as big as he got you can take off 50lbs in a few months

 

[ScottyBuff]

I am not selling it short at all. Everything you said is what it means to be stout and not allow any progress in the middle of the field. The 3-4 NT is the hardest position in defense, but yet has no pass rush responsibility.

The essential idea behind the 3-4 is that you move pass rush responsibilities to the LBs especially the OLBs so that you can better disguise and vary the pass rush.

The offense also has to fear the NT penetrating the line enough to WANT to double-team him. A guy who just sits back and waits for a double-team just because he is big, might not get one every play and now the offense has the advantage with blockers at the next level.

 

[8Jah]

I think that’s true, but the fear is he just plows a lane for Mike, or moves the LOS back so there’s no room for play to develop. I think an NT should be able to scramble a QB and that’s pass rush, but look at the NCAA stats. You see very few sacs. QBs are faster than NTs.

It is pertinent to your point that Edwards was often blocked by the OC only.

The offense also has to fear the NT penetrating the line enough to WANT to double-team him. A guy who just sits back and waits for a double-team just because he is big, might not get one every play and now the offense has the advantage with blockers at the next level.

 

[8Jah]

I'm making the argument that a NT is not just a big boulder. That's my whole damn point. I'm arguing against this suggestion I keep seeing that we should just move whomever to NT because he's a big, powerful guy.

I think the position is so difficult, though, that we can never be in a situation again where it's all hinging on a JUCO transfer who has never played 3-4 NT or a high school recruit coming in. Even a guy with all the physical traits has to be developed for that spot.

I wasn’t arguing with you about Boulder comment, I was agreeing with you on that point.

 

[8Jah]

The reason I could see Roddick as a NT is because i like the way he gets leverage And that he is nasty. It’s not because he is big. Prob big in the wrong way. Def a project either way.

 

[CULifer]

As excited as I am to see a refreshed offense, I'm more interested in watching the moves made on the defense. IMO productive defenses (CU 2016-esque) are what set apart the good from the really good teams, especially in the Pac-12 when any team (except maybe the Beavs) have a strong potential to put up 35-40+ points in any given game. So as much as I'd like to see a prolific, exciting offense next year, I'll take a 10-5 type of win (CU over Stanford 2016 type) any week of the year. It might not be firework and long bombs, but it means our D ****ed up the **** out of their O, and has good potential to do the same to the Pac North champ in the title game. Even if our offense this past season had won us games last year to get into the Pac12 title game, none of us would have been confident about our D in that game. But when you have a D that is able to get it done, especially in the trenches, and especially in this conference, I think we start setting ourselves apart in recruiting not just as DB U but as D U in the west, and start rattling off 9 and 10 win seasons.

 

[cu62nu36]

It seems like some of you think the solution to the struggles there is to find a guy who is smaller, less athletic, weaker and less experienced than Javier to try to play his position.

Absolutely. Franke is better than the 400lb version of Edwards. I'll believe it (320 lb Javier) when I see it.

 

[patebuff]

Absolutely. Franke is better than the 400lb version of Edwards. I'll believe it (320 lb Javier) when I see it.

CU will give up 400 yards rushing a game if Franke is the starter and primary at NT.

 

[Buffnik]

CU will give up 400 yards rushing a game if Franke is the starter and primary at NT.

Fortunately it was only Oregon State for the game Javier was a total DNP. We escaped with only giving up 280 rushing in that one.Losing him to a sprained ankle in the 1st half of the Arizona game the week before didn't turn out as well, though.

 

[Sykobuff]

CU will give up 400 yards rushing a game if Franke is the starter and primary at NT.

I agree, have to hope edwards drops the weight and plays better his second year which most of our juco's have achieved.

 

[Buffnik]

I agree, have to hope edwards drops the weight and plays better his second year which most of our juco's have achieved.

Yep. I remember thinking that both Spoon and Carrell were misses. Seems to be the 2nd year rather than the instant impact we hope for with JUCO recruiting as a rule of thumb.

 

[GoldenSkier]

Edwards looks like he has been grinding in the weight room, the guy is literally a mountain of potential. The altitude combined with being relied on heavily, it becomes clearer why this near 400lb guy wasn't a monster his first year. I say give him the summer and camp to really put in work and we have a guy who's ready to mess up some game plans.

 

[Buffnik]

Edwards looks like he has been grinding in the weight room, the guy is literally a mountain of potential. The altitude combined with being relied on heavily, it becomes clearer why this near 400lb guy wasn't a monster his first year. I say give him the summer and camp to really put in work and we have a guy who's ready to mess up some game plans.

It should help him a lot that Tuiloma should be ready to play more reps, too. One of the things I'm hoping for is that Drake plays much more of a DL rotation than Jeffcoat did. Hell, Jackson barely saw the field as a junior once Carrell won that job. The starters were worn down for the Pac-12 championship after that physical Utah game in 2016 and I think this was a big part of it.

 

[Sykobuff]

Yep. I remember thinking that both Spoon and Carrell were misses. Seems to be the 2nd year rather than the instant impact we hope for with JUCO recruiting as a rule of thumb.

Yeah, both struggled early and I thought wigley was not very good early but he came on late and I expect him to make the jump in 2018.

We really need somebody to consistently get after the qb.

 

[GoldenSkier]

It should help him a lot that Tuiloma should be ready to play more reps, too. One of the things I'm hoping for is that Drake plays much more of a DL rotation than Jeffcoat did. Hell, Jackson barely saw the field as a junior once Carrell won that job. The starters were worn down for the Pac-12 championship after that physical Utah game in 2016 and I think this was a big part of it.

It will be interesting to see Lang's weight. A big reason he didn't play this season is he came in and weighed around 248 after weighing in during his official visit at 282. He could be a nightmare if he bulked up.

 

[Buffnik]

Yeah, both struggled early and I thought wigley was not very good early but he came on late and I expect him to make the jump in 2018.

We really need somebody to consistently get after the qb.

I think most of it hinges on Sparaco and Callier making the frosh to soph jump in performance. We can also hope that the JUCO trend continues with Hamilton and the lightbulb comes on after redshirting in 2017. Falo returning will help a bit, though I think he's more of a "flow to the ball" guy who is more of a downhill support guy in the run game than he is a pass rusher.

Taylor, I think, will be drinking from a firehose with all that's asked of that Nickel/BUFF position and I don't want to put too crazy of an expectation on him. And Tchangam is all gravy if he's able to come in this July after only a couple years of organized football and be a difference maker (seems like a redshirt candidate to me right now).

 

[Buffnik]

It will be interesting to see Lang's weight. A big reason he didn't play this season is he came in and weighed around 248 after weighing in during his official visit at 282. He could be a nightmare if he bulked up.

I've got Lang penciled in as the 3rd starter on the DL.

Lang-Edwards-Mulumba.

Backed up by Antwine-Tuiloma-Franke.

Was hoping to hear Umu would be back to add some experience beef to that rotation.