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2020 Rocky Mountain Showdown (CANCELED) at Canvas Stadium

Creebuzz said:
I’m looking at it from the perspective of a conference president trying to add eyeballs and TV dollars. The states of Oklahoma, Iowa, Kansas, etc. shouldn’t have two teams either, but luck of history. In the article, Jack Graham posited that if CSU started winning, an invite to the big boy table would happen. I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see any pathway for CSU. None. They need to give up.

Going further, I believe football is becoming a regional sport dominated by the south. There are major threats in there for everyone out west, some of which have already manifested to one degree or another.
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I think we both agree that CSU has no shot at P5. Where I think we differ is the reasons why. If I’m reading you right, you seem to be more of the opinion that’s it’s a problem with Colorado itself, and less to do with CSU. That’s where I disagree. If CSU hadn’t completely disregarded their athletic department from around 1955 until 1995, they wouldn’t be in the position they’re in now. It’s too late to try to fix it and a new stadium is only making the problem worse by putting them into deep debt.
 
Not Sure said:
I think we both agree that CSU has no shot at P5. Where I think we differ is the reasons why. If I’m reading you right, you seem to be more of the opinion that’s it’s a problem with Colorado itself, and less to do with CSU. That’s where I disagree. If CSU hadn’t completely disregarded their athletic department from around 1955 until 1995, they wouldn’t be in the position they’re in now. It’s too late to try to fix it and a new stadium is only making the problem worse by putting them into deep debt.
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I think it’s nuanced with many factors. Colorado is a great state, growing and prosperous. No argument there. From a standpoint of population, passion, support, and talent base, I don’t see a way to add another P5 team in the state of Colorado.

So, is the state of Colorado the problem? Sort of yes and no. Nuanced.
 
Creebuzz said:
I think it’s nuanced with many factors. Colorado is a great state, growing and prosperous. No argument there. From a standpoint of population, passion, support, and talent base, I don’t see a way to add another P5 team in the state of Colorado.

So, is the state of Colorado the problem? Sort of yes and no. Nuanced.
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I actually believe if both CU and CSU were successful P5 programs, the people in this state would fully support both and it’d make college football crazy here. Whether that would actually translate into more TV revenue for conferences I don’t know
 
TSchekler said:
I actually believe if both CU and CSU were successful P5 programs, the people in this state would fully support both and it’d make college football crazy here. Whether that would actually translate into more TV revenue for conferences I don’t know
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I don't think the college football culture is strong enough to do that.

This is a Broncos state. Even when they are terrible they get priority from the fans and as a result the media over even a winning college program.

There are a number of states, mostly southern states where the culture easily supports multiple P5 programs at a higher level that CU gets, even states with a much smaller population than we have.

History does matter. A number of PAC 12 states and B12 states would only have one P5 teams if it were to be restructured now.

Not only would Boise not get in but very likely that Oregon State, Washington State, one of the Kansas schools probably KU, Iowa State and others would be left out. There are other programs across the country who would face the same situation.

I love college football but I really believe that we are not far away from a major shake out in the game. The combination of the inequities in revenues and the dramatically increasing cost associated with maintaining a program is going to mean that a significant number of P5 programs are not going to be able to justify continuing at the top level. It will also mean that most of the G5 programs will be forced to give up the illusion of playing at the top level.
 
MtnBuff said:
I don't think the college football culture is strong enough to do that.

This is a Broncos state. Even when they are terrible they get priority from the fans and as a result the media over even a winning college program.

There are a number of states, mostly southern states where the culture easily supports multiple P5 programs at a higher level that CU gets, even states with a much smaller population than we have.

History does matter. A number of PAC 12 states and B12 states would only have one P5 teams if it were to be restructured now.

Not only would Boise not get in but very likely that Oregon State, Washington State, one of the Kansas schools probably KU, Iowa State and others would be left out. There are other programs across the country who would face the same situation.

I love college football but I really believe that we are not far away from a major shake out in the game. The combination of the inequities in revenues and the dramatically increasing cost associated with maintaining a program is going to mean that a significant number of P5 programs are not going to be able to justify continuing at the top level. It will also mean that most of the G5 programs will be forced to give up the illusion of playing at the top level.
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The Broncos are the only team in the state that are suckproof, that’s for sure, but 2016 proved that CU football can be extremely relevant here, and the Lubick days in Fort Collins proved CSU can also be relevant, but neither are suckproof. If both were P5 and both were pretty good year in, year out, I think the support would be there.
 
TSchekler said:
The Broncos are the only team in the state that are suckproof, that’s for sure, but 2016 proved that CU football can be extremely relevant here, and the Lubick days in Fort Collins proved CSU can also be relevant, but neither are suckproof. If both were P5 and both were pretty good year in, year out, I think the support would be there.
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“If” is the operative word.

Seems like the path back to relevancy is steeper now than it ever was in the 90’s and 00’s.

For CU, that path back to relevancy is like driving up Trail Ridge Road in a Ryder Truck filled with Buffalo Nickles. For CSU, it’s like climbing the East face of Longs Peak barefoot.


(If you can’t tell. I miss the high country)
 
Not Sure said:
Ehhhhh, I don’t agree. The problem isn’t the state of Colorado. It’s the state of Colorado State. Between Ft Collins, Loveland, Windsor and Greeley, there’s 400,000 people and that number is growing rapidly. The Denver Metro area has 3.5 million people. That’s also growing rapidly. It’s more a problem that none of those folks give a damn about CSU athletics and aren’t willing to support it.
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Many, many years ago while drinking at a bar in Durango, a guy I worked with made what I thought was a very astute observation:

"CSU doesn't have fans; they have alumni."

And that right there is the most succinct summary of why they'll never get an invite to the bigs.
 
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Clean Undies said:
“If” is the operative word.

Seems like the path back to relevancy is steeper now than it ever was in the 90’s and 00’s.

For CU, that path back to relevancy is like driving up Trail Ridge Road in a Ryder Truck filled with Buffalo Nickles. For CSU, it’s like climbing the East face of Longs Peak barefoot.


(If you can’t tell. I miss the high country)
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For sure. I’m not suggesting that it would happen, just that Colorado is a fair weather sports state sans the Broncos. If the programs were winning, they’d get plenty of support here
 
TSchekler said:
For sure. I’m not suggesting that it would happen, just that Colorado is a fair weather sports state sans the Broncos. If the programs were winning, they’d get plenty of support here
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There’s a built in CU fan base that doesn’t care about how good CU is, though. CU will get 35,000 in the stadium when they lose to Sacramento State. CSU can’t fit 35,000 in their stadium, period. We like to beat ourselves up over a perceived lack of fan support at CU, but relatively speaking, CU gets very good fan support. It’s not at the level of Ohio State, Georgia, Texas, or Nebraska, but name me another team in the PAC 12 that could go through the **** we have gone through and still regularly put 40,000+ in the stands.
 
TSchekler said:
For sure. I’m not suggesting that it would happen, just that Colorado is a fair weather sports state sans the Broncos. If the programs were winning, they’d get plenty of support here
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It’s easier to back a winner. Although scheduling matters, too.

Football fandom gets a lot more fun when your team is beating top 25 programs and slaying blue bloods.

If CSU were to miraculously run the table in their conference, would they even sell out against the likes Nevada, SJSU, or Utah State?
 
I agree that the state of Colorado has not demonstrated it can support two P5 teams.

@TSchekler , I offer 2016 as an example to my point and against yours -- only two home games sold out that season. We didn't sell out any of the 2017 home games, despite coming off the first division championship and bowl season in forever. CU, even in 1990, has never sold out a home slate for a season. This is the flagship university of the state failing to show "P5 level support" even in the best of times.

i would love to be wrong. It would be awesome to have two P5 teams in the state, whether it was CSU or AFA bringing in XII schools.

more than anything, I want to get back to games with big crowds of people all enjoying the experience together. sigh.
 
TSchekler said:
The Broncos are the only team in the state that are suckproof, that’s for sure, but 2016 proved that CU football can be extremely relevant here, and the Lubick days in Fort Collins proved CSU can also be relevant, but neither are suckproof. If both were P5 and both were pretty good year in, year out, I think the support would be there.
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CU has viable support. When the Buffs are decent they sell tickets and they draw TV viewers. Before we began to suck CU was one of the better teams in the country at drawing national ratings on TV.

The Lubbick era at CSU proves why they aren't relevant in this discussion. The Rams had a 35,000 seat stadium in Hughes but even in their best years never kept it full.

Last year was their highest ever average attendance in their history at a bit over 32,000 in a stadium that seats 37,000. This with the excitement of opening the new stadium and a very favorable schedule for attracting fans. Following the trends of virtually every other team that has opened a new stadium that will go back down as the novelty wears off. They only have a few seasons in their entire history including the Sonny years when they averaged 30,000 and it hasn't been that long ago that they had multiple seasons in the low 20's.

Keep in mind as you look at attendance numbers and as a comparison in recent bad seasons CU has averaged closer to 45,000 that not only do numbers matter so do revenues per sold seat. When you look a that factor the revenue per seat sold (ticket price plus seat license or required donation plus voluntary donation) for CU is roughly double that of CSU.

This all means that if a school like CU averages roughly double the attendance and double the revenue per seat total revenues are four times higher, a huge difference.

Bottom line is that even in their best years CSU doesn't generate the kind of revenue or fan interest that would motivate a P5 conference to want to cut them in on a share of conference revenue. Also if you are depending on best years what is the likelyhood of them being consistently a top program in any P5 conference? In fact their revenue potential would indicate that staying at the BCS level is going to become a harder proposition for them.
 
Not Sure said:
There’s a built in CU fan base that doesn’t care about how good CU is, though. CU will get 35,000 in the stadium when they lose to Sacramento State. CSU can’t fit 35,000 in their stadium, period. We like to beat ourselves up over a perceived lack of fan support at CU, but relatively speaking, CU gets very good fan support. It’s not at the level of Ohio State, Georgia, Texas, or ****braska, but name me another team in the PAC 12 that could go through the **** we have gone through and still regularly put 40,000+ in the stands.
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I would also point to the number beyond attendance.

CSU when faced with a critical point in the continuance of their program had to scramble to generate the down payment on a new stadium for which they mortgaged their financial future.

CU in no danger of losing the program was able to convince boosters to donate much more money than CSU could generate to mostly pay for a state of the art training and practice facility.

Fan counts matter, cash counts much more.
 
TSchekler said:
The Broncos are the only team in the state that are suckproof, that’s for sure, but 2016 proved that CU football can be extremely relevant here, and the Lubick days in Fort Collins proved CSU can also be relevant, but neither are suckproof. If both were P5 and both were pretty good year in, year out, I think the support would be there.
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You're wrong on CSU-they need CU to be good, which probably puts them in a worse position than most schools in the MWC or American with a Power 5 in their state. McElwain was 10-3 his last year there, and they beat a 2 win CU team in the RMS. Nobody cared about them in Denver. CU and CSU played 10 times from '89 to '03. One team was ranked going into the game in every one of those games-that was CU in 7 of those 10.
 
Not Sure said:
If CSU hadn’t completely disregarded their athletic department from around 1955 until 1995, they wouldn’t be in the position they’re in now.
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This is the correct answer. CSU de-emphasized athletics not long before the Skyline Conference fell apart. Hell, they weren't even on the ground floor of the WAC. They chose to go Indy for a couple years before they at least came to their senses that way. If they would have spurned the WAC, they'd be in the Big Sky now, I'd wager.

Point remains, CSU had no qualms being a bottom feeder, especially in football, for decades. Had they chosen to try to compete, things might have been different.
 
When CU or CSU win, the buzz is real and fans are everywhere. It has just been so long since that was the case. The front range loves a winner. There was a time my firm couldn’t give away our seats for the nuggets. CSU hasn’t beaten Wyoming in a couple years.. Laramie is out classing fort fun. CU can’t make it go a bowl game and this year will be really tough with only big boy games. When the real Mac had Folsom kicking the lines were long and everyone wanted to be there. Don’t forget. Expect it to return!
 
Not Sure said:
There’s a built in CU fan base that doesn’t care about how good CU is, though. CU will get 35,000 in the stadium when they lose to Sacramento State. CSU can’t fit 35,000 in their stadium, period. We like to beat ourselves up over a perceived lack of fan support at CU, but relatively speaking, CU gets very good fan support. It’s not at the level of Ohio State, Georgia, Texas, or ****braska, but name me another team in the PAC 12 that could go through the **** we have gone through and still regularly put 40,000+ in the stands.
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Hate you bringing up the Sac State memory because I was at that game, but agree 100% with your point. Had season tickets from 11-15 (so the era that we were the worst team in the power 5 or close to it) and I don't remember a game where there weren't 35k there.
 
I guess it's official, maybe a thread title update from "9/5" to "Cancelled"?
 
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