Is sustained success even possible at CU?

[BlackNGold]

I agree with a lot of that but not recruiting area. There are many programs, not in recruiting hot beds, that have had recent success.

Iowa, Iowa State, Indiana, Utah, Wisconsin, and Oklahoma State are just a few.

CU for whatever reason has not been able to land the top players from Colorado.

None of my points are independent they mesh together. Indiana , Iowa and Wisconsin all are in the Big 10 and have great TV exposure. Draw a 500 hundred mile radius around most of those schools and how many top recruits are available compared to CU. And if you think you are going to dominate with Colorado HS players you are crazy. Yes it would be nice to get more local talent but Colorado is not a recruiting hotbed.

 

[Not Sure]

If our basketball team can have sustained success, there’s no reason our football team can’t. That said, I do wonder how NIL will impact Tads ability to recruit players. Probably not quite as significant an issue for hoops, but still something that needs navigating.

 

[RalphieSpeaks]

None of my points are independent they mesh together. Indiana , Iowa and Wisconsin all are in the Big 10 and have great TV exposure. Draw a 500 hundred mile radius around most of those schools and how many top recruits are available compared to CU. And if you think you are going to dominate with Colorado HS players you are crazy. Yes it would be nice to get more local talent but Colorado is not a recruiting hotbed.

And neither is Utah but they manage to field a winning program.

If you don’t think we can put together a Iowa or Utah like program we should probably fold the program. That is not some elite aspirations.

 

[seattlebuff]

And neither is Utah but they manage to field a winning program.

If you don’t think we can put together a Iowa or Utah like program we should probably fold the program. That is not some elite aspirations.

Iowa? Are you kidding? We are light years behind them in sustained success, and they play in much better conference. Iowa right now is where we were in the late 90s, as far as program relevance. We're a LONG way from that.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

And, nobody here is asking for CU to be competitive with the top programs in the country. Can we simply not lose 30-0 at home to a mediocre Big 10 team? Can we not go 7 quarters in a row without a point scored? Can we hire a staff that understands basic roster management and recruiting? All anyone here is asking is for CU to sustain 6-8 wins/year, understanding there will be some 4-5 win seasons every now and then, but also some 9-10 win seasons every now and then. MOST P5 programs are capable of achieving that kind of sustained success. There are no excuses that CU can't do it as well.

 

[RalphieSpeaks]

Iowa? Are you kidding? We are light years behind them in sustained success, and they play in much better conference. Iowa right now is where we were in the late 90s, as far as program relevance. We're a LONG way from that.

Our late 90’s was average outside of 96.

But that wasn’t why Iowa was mentioned. They were brought up as an example of a team that has had success without being in a recruiting hot bed.

And yes Colorado is capable of that level of success with the proper changes. They are consistently a 7-8 win team that every once in awhile exceeds that.

 

[buffs04]

The sad part about this thread is that its tone isn’t really all that different than the threads here during for instance the late Barnett era or the Hawkins era or the Embree era or most of the MM era...

Just more of the same, really. Fewer “sunshine pumpers” as they used to be called, I guess.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

Football at CU seems like an inconvenience almost to the leaders. Rick George is overrated and has done nothing to help our sports grow and improve. So disappointing to keep doing this over and over.

#basketball

 

[MiamiBuffs]

Revisionist bull****. Tucker left because MSU paid the man a **** ton of money.

Weve been food carted twice now. That might tell everyone about where to set their ecpectations

 

[hokiehead]

CU has a lot going against it that has little to do with the administration.

- Lack of big money donors. CU has comparatively few donors with the money or the will to focus on athletics and football. I am not saying we don’t has some good donors but compared to the top programs we are way down the list.

- Lack of passion in the region for college sports. The population is growing and CU attendance is flat or declining. If you were a top HS player and you walked into a Stadium packed with 80000 rabid fans vs CU which one would you rather commit to.

- PAC 12 is hurting CU, poor TV exposure. Etc.

- CU has a sparse recruiting area.

- Since Barnett was fired CU has made too many bad hiring decisions and wasted the resources they do have. Overpaying mediocre assistants instead of searching for better ones.

I could go on for days but we are not going to get out of this hole overnight.

I think you're giving the administration passes they don't deserve.

- lack of BMDs falls on the admin (unless you're going to try to convince me that CU doesn't have wealthy alumni). Every major university has fund raising departments and alumni outreach departments and legacy departments (and/or whatever else you want to call them) -- their job is 100% to find those donors and get their money. My in-laws are good friends with a woman who worked for VT; her job was convincing aging wealthy alumni to leave at least a portion of their fortunes to the university upon death -- <rhetorical>who does that at CU? who manages that group and what criteria are they held accountable to?</r>

- the CU administration voluntarily joined the PAC 12 (hell, literally applied to become a member) -- if you consider membership in that conference a bad choice (debatable, but the point is very fair discussion), it makes no sense to say the decision has little to do with the admin. This point also gives no credit to CU being a voting member of that conference who is able to influence and shape Pac 12 policies.

- bad coaching hiring decisions. I can't fathom holding anyone besides the CUAD accountable for these

OTOH, being in an area that doesn't GAF about college sports and poor recruiting area -- I agree the admin doesn't own those.

 

[Bison]

I think you're giving the administration passes they don't deserve.

- lack of BMDs falls on the admin (unless you're going to try to convince me that CU doesn't have wealthy alumni). Every major university has fund raising departments and alumni outreach departments and legacy departments (and/or whatever else you want to call them) -- their job is 100% to find those donors and get their money. My in-laws are good friends with a woman who worked for VT; her job was convincing aging wealthy alumni to leave at least a portion of their fortunes to the university upon death -- <rhetorical>who does that at CU? who manages that group and what criteria are they held accountable to?</r>

- the CU administration voluntarily joined the PAC 12 (hell, literally applied to become a member) -- if you consider membership in that conference a bad choice (debatable, but the point is very fair discussion), it makes no sense to say the decision has little to do with the admin. This point also gives no credit to CU being a voting member of that conference who is able to influence and shape Pac 12 policies.

- bad coaching hiring decisions. I can't fathom holding anyone besides the CUAD accountable for these

OTOH, being in an area that doesn't GAF about college sports and poor recruiting area -- I agree the admin doesn't own those.

-CU has not done a good job historically with alumni for years to come and this was something discussed on this forum in the past.

-The decision to join the Pac-12 could be closely tied to the alumni contact issue that had been ongoing for years due to the number of living alumni on the west coast. I had no clue of how collectively apathetic the Pac-12 is towards college athletics and it certainly had an effect on the CU administration and I'm sure many CU fans who didn't originate from the west coast felt the same way.

-The CU administration told Mike Bohn to postpone the firing of Dan Hawkins for a year so they could work on getting CU into the Pac-12. I'm sure the administration had to tell the AD they couldn't hire some coaches they wanted to hire.

-When CO was still a reliably red state before Californians overwhelmed this state, there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm from within the state for supporting CU the school because of Boulder's longstanding leftist politics so it's possible the AD suffered as well. I didn't toe the party line as a fan because CU was Colorado's team not AFA nor CSU. This is why you should not include politics when choosing a team to root for as some AllBuffers would insist on. I'm sure Nebraska-Lincoln would be a blue eyesore on a mostly red state map in addition to Omaha but that doesn't stop Nebraskans from all walks of life from supporting their team.

-It's ironic that we just lost badly to a team (Minnesota) whose administration has a long history of being apathic towards athletics (since the 1960's) even if they had the advantage of being the only D1 school in Minnesota for many years until a D3 school was forced to upgrade to D1 since going to D2 wasn't feasible (St. Thomas) just this year. Those Gopher fans would have been happy to give out some pointers over perhaps a few beers.

-The apathy towards college athletics in this state isn't only on full display at CU, it's also going on at CSU and UNC. At AFA, athletics is an essential part of the training of our future Air Force officers. That is why excitement for college sports is still declining in this state and people moving in from out of state isn't too terribly excited about supporting a local college team. This type of apathy especially the administration wasn't that evident at CU in the late 1980's when I came on board as a CU fan. If I just moved into this state recently, I'd not bother with CU at this point and put all of my emotional investment into the Denver Broncos instead. I'm too much of a college sports fan to take that Broncos path so I'd most likely find another college team to root for.

-It still ultimately all goes back to the administration when it comes to the struggles of CU football. It's tough to continue to put the emotional investment towards the team when the administration clearly doesn't care.

 

[seattlebuff]

Our late 90’s was average outside of 96.

But that wasn’t why Iowa was mentioned. They were brought up as an example of a team that has had success without being in a recruiting hot bed.

And yes Colorado is capable of that level of success with the proper changes. They are consistently a 7-8 win team that every once in awhile exceeds that.

As sad as it is to admit, Utah seems like our north star. Whatever it is they're doing, we need to do. They can't have any more admin or big donor resources than we do, have way less "history", it's an average fan base, they're actually the step child in their state. The difference is Wittingham, I guess.

What about Fresno State and Boise State? They have significantly less to work with than us, yet they're competitive year in and year out. I think it has less to do with how much you pay your assistants, versus just hiring the right guy at the top.

 

[hokiehead]

I remember when the Pac 12 expanded with CU and UU, just about every sports fan that I talked to had the same reaction of "Colorado has history and tradition, but why in the hell would the Pac want Utah?!?!?!"

 

[Boulder]

There is really no way for CU to have sustained success in the current college football landscape. Despite Boulder being beautiful and a great place to live, it attracts people who are apathetic to college football. Recruits are not impressed by how many farm to table restaurants your city has, they are drawn in by rapid fanbases, success as program, and less than ethical incentives. Add in a university who thinks way too highly of their academic standing, administration which from personal experience on all level is horrid, being in the wrong conference (going to the B1G was the move in hindsight), lack of donors, and more leads to it being quite the uphill battle to be respectable.

 

[Not Sure]

It really shouldn’t be all that difficult. Wisconsin, Washington, Iowa, Utah are all examples of very similar schools who have somehow made it work. What are they doing that we aren’t? That’s where I’d start. Find a school to emulate, and run its playbook. I’d recommend Wisconsin.

 

[BuffUp]

It really shouldn’t be all that difficult. Wisconsin, Washington, Iowa, Utah are all examples of very similar schools who have somehow made it work. What are they doing that we aren’t? That’s where I’d start. Find a school to emulate, and run its playbook. I’d recommend Wisconsin.

yea, they always seem to get those big ol nasty O Linemen though

 

[Not Sure]

yea, they always seem to get those big ol nasty O Linemen though

That’s part of the playbook.

 

[skibum]

yea, they always seem to get those big ol nasty O Linemen though

And the state of Colorado produces more d1 linemen than any other position.

 

[Napper]

Of course sustained success is possible. If Coach Mac had stayed at CU instead of retiring early, CU would have had about 20 years of so years of sustained success instead of about 10. At that point, you are beginning to capture multiple generations of fans from the same family and it really strengthens the brand. But at that point, you also need to make a good hire to replace him. The wheels started to come off at CU when Rick N was hired to replace Coach Mac. Gary B was solid for awhile, but once the admin threw him under the bus, the job wasn't looked upon as much more than a stepping stone to better jobs in the PAC, BIG, and SEC.

With that said, although sustained success is possible, it isn't likely. In general, CU has a fanbase with too many other options for their disposable income.

 

[Burrito]

There is really no way for CU to have sustained success in the current college football landscape. Despite Boulder being beautiful and a great place to live, it attracts people who are apathetic to college football. Recruits are not impressed by how many farm to table restaurants your city has, they are drawn in by rapid fanbases, success as program, and less than ethical incentives. Add in a university who thinks way too highly of their academic standing, administration which from personal experience on all level is horrid, being in the wrong conference (going to the B1G was the move in hindsight), lack of donors, and more leads to it being quite the uphill battle to be respectable.

To be fair, our fan base is likely faster than most.

 

[CarolinaBuff]

It really shouldn’t be all that difficult. Wisconsin, Washington, Iowa, Utah are all examples of very similar schools who have somehow made it work. What are they doing that we aren’t? That’s where I’d start. Find a school to emulate, and run its playbook. I’d recommend Wisconsin.

These schools truly care about their football program and want the program to win.

 

[Not Sure]

These schools truly care about their football program and want the program to win.

Again, part of the playbook.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

It really shouldn’t be all that difficult. Wisconsin, Washington, Iowa, Utah are all examples of very similar schools who have somehow made it work. What are they doing that we aren’t? That’s where I’d start. Find a school to emulate, and run its playbook. I’d recommend Wisconsin.

The difference is that the state of Wisconsin is almost as rabid about the Badgers as Nebraska is about the Huskers. Kids who grow up there dream of playing at Camp Randall, so they get whoever they want from the state, and they have built such an amazing reputation and identity at developing elite OL that they can now go just about anywhere in the country and pull elite OL recruits.

Go look at their recruiting classes. The last 3 years they ranked 29, 26, and 16 nationally and almost all their top recruits every season are OL and DL. That’s where they have placed the emphasis.

 

[hokiehead]

The difference is that the state of Wisconsin is almost as rabid about the Badgers as ****braska is about the ****ers. Kids who grow up there dream of playing at Camp Randall, so they get whoever they want from the state, and they have built such an amazing reputation and identity at developing elite OL that they can now go just about anywhere in the country and pull elite OL recruits.

Go look at their recruiting classes. The last 3 years they ranked 29, 26, and 16 nationally and almost all their top recruits every season are OL and DL. That’s where they have placed the emphasis.

In context of this discussion, it's relevant to note that UW didn't have many top 30 recruiting classes until recently. They figured out how to perennially compete for the B1G without the 5* and 4* guys.

My commie dad and i frequently discuss the 2012 class - lowest ranked in the B1G that year. Yet, in 2013 UW finished ranked and in 2014 won the division.

Also, I respectfully disagree about state rabidity for UW. Certainly, it's better than support CU gets. Granted I grew up in a Catholic community, but i knew more kids who wanted to go to Notre Dame or Marquette than Madison. And UW doesn't pack Camp Randall.

 

[Not Sure]

Pointing out the differences between Wisconsin, Washington, etc and CU completely misses the point. Sure, there are differences. The similarities is what we need to be concentrating on. These are schools with a very similar set of challenges to what CU deals with, yet they have figured out a way to succeed in spite of those challenges. Let’s figure out what they did to overcome those issues. It has to be more than just hiring the right coach and hoping for the best - which appears to be the strategy here.

 

[hokiehead]

Pointing out the differences between Wisconsin, Washington, etc and CU completely misses the point. Sure, there are differences. The similarities is what we need to be concentrating on. These are schools with a very similar set of challenges to what CU deals with, yet they have figured out a way to succeed in spite of those challenges. Let’s figure out what they did to overcome those issues. It has to be more than just hiring the right coach and hoping for the best - which appears to be the strategy here.

A lot of schools have been trying to replicate what Wisconsin did over the last 20 years and haven't figured it out. UW is an outlier in CFB w/r/t winning w/out high ranked recruiting classes. What do you see in how they built that program that CU can replicate where so many others failed?

Virginia Tech built their rise from nothing to a perennial conference contender through special teams, and then used success to get players like Vick, Jones, Suggs, Freeman, etc... But I don't think that model will work any more.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

In context of this discussion, it's relevant to note that UW didn't have many top 30 recruiting classes until recently. They figured out how to perennially compete for the B1G without the 5* and 4* guys.

My commie dad and i frequently discuss the 2012 class - lowest ranked in the B1G that year. Yet, in 2013 UW finished ranked and in 2014 won the division.

Also, I respectfully disagree about state rabidity for UW. Certainly, it's better than support CU gets. Granted I grew up in a Catholic community, but i knew more kids who wanted to go to Notre Dame or Marquette than Madison. And UW doesn't pack Camp Randall.

They rank 16th in the country in attendance over the last 5 years with a capacity of 97% over that time.

Attendance Rankings, Averages For Every School: 2020 CFN Five-Year Program Analysis

How many people show up? As a part of the CFN Five-Year Program Analysis, the attendance is a factor. Here are the rankings of all 130 schools. Contact @PeteFiutak 2020 Five-Year Program Analysis A…

collegefootballnews.com

Also, there are certainly many in the Midwest region who likely have ND as their top program, and I’m sure there are many in WI who love Marquette, but for football purposes, Marquette obviously isn’t in the picture and most of that state, or at least the populated areas around Madison are die hard Badger fans. The money that pours into that place makes CU look poverty stricken.

I will concede that their recruiting has only recently been top 20-25, but they’ve had such a storied tradition and identity with their program that it’s not realistic for CU to simply say, “let’s emulate the Wisconsin model”. Iowa is kind of in a similar boat.

Washington is the program that CU could probably point to as the best option to emulate, but they would need to find the next Chris Petersen. So, basically, make a great hire and give him the resources to hire a good staff. I would love for RG to have done that.

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

Pointing out the differences between Wisconsin, Washington, etc and CU completely misses the point. Sure, there are differences. The similarities is what we need to be concentrating on. These are schools with a very similar set of challenges to what CU deals with, yet they have figured out a way to succeed in spite of those challenges. Let’s figure out what they did to overcome those issues. It has to be more than just hiring the right coach and hoping for the best - which appears to be the strategy here.

Focusing on the similarities and ignoring the differences seems pointless. If teams could easily emulate Wisconsin, they would. They are only similar to CU in state demographics, and talent level within the state. Outside of that, there really aren’t any similarities

 

[hokiehead]

They rank 16th in the country in attendance over the last 5 years with a capacity of 97% over that time.

Attendance Rankings, Averages For Every School: 2020 CFN Five-Year Program Analysis

How many people show up? As a part of the CFN Five-Year Program Analysis, the attendance is a factor. Here are the rankings of all 130 schools. Contact @PeteFiutak 2020 Five-Year Program Analysis A…

collegefootballnews.com

Also, there are certainly many in the Midwest region who likely have ND as their top program, and I’m sure there are many in WI who love Marquette, but for football purposes, Marquette obviously isn’t in the picture and most of that state, or at least the populated areas around Madison are die hard Badger fans. The money that pours into that place makes CU look poverty stricken.

I will concede that their recruiting has only recently been top 20-25, but they’ve had such a storied tradition and identity with their program that it’s not realistic for CU to simply say, “let’s emulate the Wisconsin model”. Iowa is kind of in a similar boat.

Washington is the program that CU could probably point to as the best option to emulate, but they would need to find the next Chris Petersen. So, basically, make a great hire and give him the resources to hire a good staff. I would love for RG to have done that.

great points.

I'm legit surprised at those attendance numbers though. i watch almost every UW game and have gotten very accustomed to seeing shots like the below when the camera pans over the grandstands. This may highlight the large discrepancy between reporting attendance as tickets distributed vs turnstile count (even accounting for the late arriving student section).

 

[The Alabaster Yak]

great points.

I'm legit surprised at those attendance numbers though. i watch almost every UW game and have gotten very accustomed to seeing shots like the below when the camera pans over the grandstands. This may highlight the large discrepancy between reporting attendance as tickets distributed vs turnstile count (even accounting for the late arriving student section).

That’s the student and band section at what looks to be well before kickoff, though, right?

I don’t know, I’ve been to 3-4 games there over the last 5 years or so and it’s been packed every time. Crazy cool gameday atmosphere.

Regardless, their stadium holds about 30k more people than Folsom and they at least SELL 97% every year. The revenue differences are massive which trickle down into every aspect of the program operations.