Mel Tucker leaves CU for Michigan State

[MiamiBuffs]

Again, I disagree with this standard “free market” idiom, as it purposefully ignores one of the essential bases of a functioning “free market”: the binding nature of contracts. Everyone seems to skip over this part of the present problem.
A “free market” is only “free” when the parties have faith there is an ability to enforce mutual agreements; otherwise, we merely exist in some Hobbsean state of nature: i.e., “we should keep our covenants (so long as there is a common power to enforce them).”

The present system is cresting toward acceptability of unilateral breach of contracts, by those with so much money contract terms (and liquidated damages provisions) are meaningless to enforce the spirit of the agreement.
As in criminal law, we are moving toward the place where if you have enough money, you can get out of any liability.

Even the “free market” breaks down when contracts are meaningless.

Of course, all of this presumes that a “free market” is the point of the system, which it isn’t. The NFL, just for one example, operates under a strict collective bargaining agreement. It is not a “free market.” College athletics are strictly regulated as to movement of athletes, but not as to coaches.

Amazingly, there may be a simple solution to this lack of oversight or rules re movement of coaches, which derives from the essence of contract law (and was mentioned by RG): stop the accepted “norm” of granting other schools permission to talk to your coach about other jobs.

Absent that waiver, such conduct can be considered “tortious interference,” subject to actual, substantial damages.

If you truly desire a “free market,” people should be held to the obligations they are “free” to choose to enter into.

The lawyers have worked pretty hard to make these contracts essentially hollow. It's "at will" employment with a buyout.

Maybe if you had to go to court to get out of your contact to work for someone else this wouldnt happen.

 

[1991 Orange Bowl]

Anyone else find it odd that Tucker has now accepted two head coaching gigs before even stepping foot on those campuses in the last two decades? Of course I'm making (relatively safe) assumptions here that he doesn't vacation in East Lansing. Seems like a big red flag, in hindsight, that the place he lives has no bearing on his decision to take a job. Seems to me you'd want to hire a guy who loves living in Colorado just as much as he loves the football side of things.

 

[manhattanbuff]

Again, I disagree with this standard “free market” idiom, as it purposefully ignores one of the essential bases of a functioning “free market”: the binding nature of contracts. Everyone seems to skip over this part of the present problem.
A “free market” is only “free” when the parties have faith there is an ability to enforce mutual agreements; otherwise, we merely exist in some Hobbsean state of nature: i.e., “we should keep our covenants (so long as there is a common power to enforce them).”

The present system is cresting toward acceptability of unilateral breach of contracts, by those with so much money contract terms (and liquidated damages provisions) are meaningless to enforce the spirit of the agreement.
As in criminal law, we are moving toward the place where if you have enough money, you can get out of any liability.

Even the “free market” breaks down when contracts are meaningless.

Of course, all of this presumes that a “free market” is the point of the system, which it isn’t. The NFL, just for one example, operates under a strict collective bargaining agreement. It is not a “free market.” College athletics are strictly regulated as to movement of athletes, but not as to coaches.

Amazingly, there may be a simple solution to this lack of oversight or rules re movement of coaches, which derives from the essence of contract law (and was mentioned by RG): stop the accepted “norm” of granting other schools permission to talk to your coach about other jobs.

Absent that waiver, such conduct can be considered “tortious interference,” subject to actual, substantial damages.

If you truly desire a “free market,” people should be held to the obligations they are “free” to choose to enter into.

There are specific contract terms related to early contract termination on both sides. There are even handy dates and amounts associated with termination.

 

[Jens1893]

Anyone else find it odd that Tucker has now accepted two head coaching gigs before even stepping foot on those campuses in the last two decades? Of course I'm making (relatively safe) assumptions here that he doesn't vacation in East Lansing. Seems like a big red flag, in hindsight, that the place he lives has no bearing on his decision to take a job. Seems to me you'd want to hire a guy who loves living in Colorado just as much as he loves the football side of things.

No. Not when you go from making 900k to 5.5m in 24 months.

 

[skibum]

a million bucks for a TE coach and recruiting coordinator. Wow.

This is reason #2 why Tucker left.

We're simply not playing in the same pool as the B1G and SEC, and the only even vaguely realistic plan to get there is to join them.

Options:
1. Do everything we can to join the B1G. Not so strangely, NU would probably go to bat for us (although I'm not sure if that would help or hurt).
2. Win the lottery, find one of those big shot donors, wait for the P12 to magically fire Larry Scott and get its **** together - they all have about equal chances of happening
3. Accept that our ceiling is competing for a division championship in a second tier conference once a decade or so, and at best we'll be a training ground for coaches while they wait their shot at the "big time."

 

[HighlandsBuff]

Anyone else find it odd that Tucker has now accepted two head coaching gigs before even stepping foot on those campuses in the last two decades? Of course I'm making (relatively safe) assumptions here that he doesn't vacation in East Lansing. Seems like a big red flag, in hindsight, that the place he lives has no bearing on his decision to take a job. Seems to me you'd want to hire a guy who loves living in Colorado just as much as he loves the football side of things.

Well, he was a GA at MSU, so he had lived there before, and he's from the midwest, so he knows the weather and culture generally... and I think he knew Boulder was nice.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

Anyone else find it odd that Tucker has now accepted two head coaching gigs before even stepping foot on those campuses in the last two decades? Of course I'm making (relatively safe) assumptions here that he doesn't vacation in East Lansing. Seems like a big red flag, in hindsight, that the place he lives has no bearing on his decision to take a job. Seems to me you'd want to hire a guy who loves living in Colorado just as much as he loves the football side of things.

Dave Logan loves living in Colorado. He loves the university too since he played there.

Given that Tucker played at Wisconsin my guess is he's been to East Lansing at least once. As towns in Michigan go Lansing is less ****ty than most. But the weather in that state sucks balls.

People in that particular career lane dont care where they live or even who they work for. They care about being at a place that allows them to compete at the highest level possible. They accept that its a gypsys life.

 

[1991 Orange Bowl]

No. Not when you go from making 900k to 5.5m in 24 months.

I mean, if you're Tucker, and it is literally all about the money, and nothing else, then yes it makes sense. But if you're RIck George and you ask the guy you're gonna hire if he wants to come to Boulder first to see the university, the facilities, etc., and the guy says, nah, just show me where to sign and I'll check it out later.. wouldn't you think that was odd?

 

[KingPants]

As towns in Michigan go Lansing is less ****ty than most.

Wooo....don't know about that. Compared to Flint maybe, but Lansing is an ass town.

 

[DrunkRalphie]

There are specific contract terms related to early contract termination on both sides. There are even handy dates and amounts associated with termination.

Even that hits a theoretical saturation point. How high do you have to make a buyout number to prevent the SEC and Big10 from paying it? At what point does that number climb so high potential coaches refuse to sign a contract because the buyout is so insane?

 

[Jens1893]

I mean, if you're Tucker, and it is literally all about the money, and nothing else, then yes it makes sense. But if you're RIck George and you ask the guy you're gonna hire if he wants to come to Boulder first to see the university, the facilities, etc., and the guy says, nah, just show me where to sign and I'll check it out later.. wouldn't you think that was odd?

No, I really don't. I think they all have a decent idea of what the facilities are like and will discuss that, but at the end of the day money talks and for the coaches in particular work so much between recruiting, donor events, coaching etc it really doesn't matter to them where they live

 

[1991 Orange Bowl]

Dave Logan loves living in Colorado. He loves the university too since he played there.

Given that Tucker played at Wisconsin my guess is he's been to East Lansing at least once. As towns in Michigan go Lansing is less ****ty than most. But the weather in that state sucks balls.

People in that particular career lane dont care where they live or even who they work for. They care about being at a place that allows them to compete at the highest level possible. They accept that its a gypsys life.

I know Michigan better than most people on this site. I lived there several years and still own a house there. I could go make nearly double what I make now just by committing to live in Michigan full-time and doing the same thing I do now (healthcare), but there's absolutely no way I'd consider that. I'll gladly take way less money to live in a place like Colorado. But I get that that's not the norm, and especially not the norm when it comes to the culture of college football coaching. I just don't personally get it.

 

[GawainBuff]

There are specific contract terms related to early contract termination on both sides. There are even handy dates and amounts associated with termination.

Of course.

The point is that those provisions have become meaningless in a system where Big Ten/SEC schools will each garner $100 million more than PAC 12 schools over the next 5-10 years. Or where Nike, Knight, etc can just buy out any such provision.

And a school like CU cannot negotiate a high enough damages provision up front when only able to pay $2.5 million a year. The contract CU is able to achieve becomes meaningless to serve its purpose in an uneven “market” of such scale.

So the question is: who is this “market” designed to serve?

 

[Jens1893]

Even that hits a theoretical saturation point. How high do you have to make a buyout number to prevent the SEC and Big10 from paying it? At what point does that number climb so high potential coaches refuse to sign a contract because the buyout is so insane?

I don't think you can ever truly protect yourself from a situation such as this one. MSU just settled a 500m lawsuit, paid Dantonio a 4m bonus, doubled their assistant pool and doubled Tucker's salary, so I am not sure even a 10m buyout would've scared them off. That 20m a year needs to go somewhere and they have more money than they know what do with it. As you cannot pay the players (through official channels at least), blowing it on the coaches is the next best thing if you want to help your team win more football games.

If we get a donor that commits to donating 20m a year to the football program, we will have caught up. Nothing more, nothing less. And that's 20m every year.

 

[DrunkRalphie]

I don't think you can ever truly protect yourself from a situation such as this one. MSU just settled a 500m lawsuit, paid Dantonio a 4m bonus, doubled their assistant pool and doubled Tucker's salary, so I am not sure even a 10m buyout would've scared them off. That 20m a year needs to go somewhere and they have more money than they know what do with it. As you cannot pay the players (through official channels at least), blowing it on the coaches is the next best thing if you want to help your team win more football games.

If we get a donor that commits to donating 20m a year to the football program, we will have caught up. Nothing more, nothing less. And that's 20m every year.

I don't disagree. Outside of a salary cap on coaching salaries and recruiting budgets there's little to be done if you're a school outside the SEC and Big10. Unless you have a Phil Knight it's life.

 

[Jens1893]

I don't disagree. Outside of a salary cap on coaching salaries and recruiting budgets there's little to be done if you're a school outside the SEC and Big10. Unless you have a Phil Knight it's life.

There's obviously never a good time to suck as much as we have, but to do it during a period where the changing media world leaves a huge mark on college athletics and reshapes the whole landscape is disastrous, catastrophic and might be a death sentence.

 

[GawainBuff]

The lawyers have worked pretty hard to make these contracts essentially hollow. It's "at will" employment with a buyout.

Maybe if you had to go to court to get out of your contact to work for someone else this wouldnt happen.

I completely agree, with the caveat that the damages for even tortious interference can crest into the speculative. However, unknown damages can also mean “exposure” and the possibility of a big hit.

Who knows. Maybe that uncertainty could mitigate some of this.

 

[MiamiBuffs]

Wooo....don't know about that. Compared to Flint maybe, but Lansing is an ass town.

Heh.

I lived next to Flint and worked in it. I also lived in Kalamazoo. And spent a lot of time in Detroit and the burbs there of. It's all about the number of abandoned houses and factories in that state. Ann Arbor and Traverse City are nice.

 

[FlatironsBuff]

I was thinking about that last part earlier today. We've been suffering for about 15-20 years from all the scandals at that time and maybe this is that moment that brings the program into the light from the darkness. This was actually a positive press event for CU, in the national perspective CU was the victim here. I mean we had Chris Fowler speaking about the Buffs for 5 minutes yesterday. Front page of ESPN with multiple articles. Maybe this galvanizes the fan base and boosters to get behind the kids, which is exactly what the program needs to turn things around. Maybe This charges the coaches and front office to make a real change to get over the hump - they may have to or the program might die.

This is a pivotal pivotal moment for the program. Teetering.

It’s a pivotal moment for the PAC 12. This was the cannon shot across the bow of the PAC 12. Figure out media deals that makes us competitive, or be left behind. We are more Mountain West than we are Big 10 right now. This is serious.

 

[1991 Orange Bowl]

Heh.

I lived next to Flint and worked in it. I also lived in Kalamazoo. And spent a lot of time in Detroit and the burbs there of. It's all about the number of abandoned houses and factories in that state. Ann Arbor and Traverse City is nice in July and half of August.

FIFY

 

[hawg1]

Saban is just butt-hurt that Alfano beat feet out of town, only to land at CU

He does this all the time.

 

[BuffUp]

He does this all the time.

Hawg please change your avatar

 

[hawg1]

Even that hits a theoretical saturation point. How high do you have to make a buyout number to prevent the SEC and Big10 from paying it? At what point does that number climb so high potential coaches refuse to sign a contract because the buyout is so insane?

MSU paid 17.1m to change coaches.

 

[hawg1]

There are specific contract terms related to early contract termination on both sides. There are even handy dates and amounts associated with termination.

Rolovich contract at Wazzu is a good comp for RG.

 

[Deleted member 807]

SIAP. Interesting.

Inside the eight-day coaching search that brought Mel Tucker to Michigan State

Tucker was introduced as Michigan State's new football coach on Wednesday

www.mlive.com

This article indicates that Nick Saban was a big cigar in the MSU coaching search. His reach goes deep into MSU, which is notable given his current roll as Bama HC


I suspect that Saban championed Tucker with the new AD, and ultimately may have drove the wedge between Rick George and Mel Tucker that led to the lies and Tuck-n-run.

Saban’s influence includes:
narrowing MSU’s field of candidates to include Tucker

selling MSU Bill Beekman on Tucker being qualified (HC experience, Character, B10 experience)

what is not stated in the article, but a topic of interest is how much communication took place between Saban and Tucker between last Friday and the following Tuesday.

Did Saban text/contact Tucker and provide inside info?
How to prepare for the interview
How the MSUAD ranked Tucker vs other candidates
Did he intervene and lean on Mel? Placing Mel in a position of choosing between the advice/guidance of his mentor, and his relationship with Rick George?

Seems possible that Saban’s role as Football Godfather may be a contributing factor in Mel acting like a maggot and bailing on CU under such foul circumstances.

My impression is that Saban the kingmaker thought highly enough of Colorado to help MT land his first HC gig, but not so highly to stop Mel from treading all over dear old CU only 14 months later. If Tucker is going to follow in Saban’s footprints, then you gotta take the job Saban had and is helping fill in E Lansing.

It probably is a reach, but if this thesis has merit, then I’m not feeling very good about Saban, and I’m aware that risk exists when dealing with Saban’s disciples.

The Football coaching community is a small universe. Once you are one of Saban’s guys, you are always one of Saban’s guys. Saban giveth. Saban taketh away.

Sure wouldn’t hurt if RG could call in a chip after MSU pulled the rug out from under Colorado. And if RG or LC don’t have a healthy relationship with Saban, then they just might want to treat members from that coaching tree with care, because it’s hard to bleed black and gold at the same time you need to kiss Saban’s ring.

 

[241Volcanos]

I’m so sick of people who will never see one million dollars talk about how they’d turn down $18 million more to take a job with more favorable conditions for his direct employees...

You’re so sick of morality?

 

[FlatironsBuff]

Totally agreed. I’m still not mad at him because he received the kind of deal that’s impossible to refuse.

The thing is, coaches are known by their win loss record. If you can pay double for assistant coaches, you’ll likely win more games. More wins mean more opportunities, or at least current opportunity is not lost. I’m sure that wasn’t lost on him.

 

[1991 Orange Bowl]

This article indicates that Nick Saban was a big cigar in the MSU coaching search. His reach goes deep into MSU, which is notable given his current roll as Bama HC


I suspect that Saban championed Tucker with the new AD, and ultimately may have drove the wedge between Rick George and Mel Tucker that led to the lies and Tuck-n-run.

Saban’s influence includes:
narrowing MSU’s field of candidates to include Tucker

selling MSU Bill Beekman on Tucker being qualified (HC experience, Character, B10 experience)

what is not stated in the article, but a topic of interest is how much communication took place between Saban and Tucker between last Friday and the following Tuesday.

Did Saban text/contact Tucker and provide inside info?
How to prepare for the interview
How the MSUAD ranked Tucker vs other candidates
Did he intervene and lean on Mel? Placing Mel in a position of choosing between the advice/guidance of his mentor, and his relationship with Rick George?

Seems possible that Saban’s roll as Football Godfather may be a contributing factor in Mel acting like a maggot and bailing on CU under such foul circumstances.

My impression is that Saban the kingmaker thought highly enough of Colorado to help him land a job in Colorado, but not highly enough of Rick George than to use dear old CU as a stepping stone for one of his own get the job with Saban’s former employer.

It probably is a reach, but if this thesis has merit, then I’m not feeling very good about Saban, and I’m aware that risk exists when dealing with Saban’s disciples.

The Football coaching community is a small universe. Once you are one of Saban’s guys, you are always one of Saban’s guys. Saban giveth. Saban taketh away.

Sure wouldn’t hurt if RG could call in a chip after MSU pulled the rug out from under Colorado. And if RG or LC don’t have a healthy relationship with Saban, then they just might want to treat members from that coaching tree with care, because it’s hard to bleed black and gold at the same time you need to kiss Saban’s ring.

Why hire a search firm when you’ve got Nick Saban?

 

[Big Jim]

Man, I hope this thread dies soon.

Day 2. RG has moved on. Players have moved on. I’m moving to coaching search thread.

Can I get a **** you?

There are still some Buff fans that hold a bitter hatred for Rick Neuheisel and he left CU over 20 years ago. Some people are just fueled by anger.

 

[Buffarino]

I’m so sick of people who will never see one million dollars talk about how they’d turn down $18 million more to take a job with more favorable conditions for his direct employees...

On the flip side, it seems you would do anything for money.

What a lot of people are saying is that money isn't everything, especially when you're already making $3mm per year. MT's lifestyle is not going to change (or at least it shouldn't) by increasing that to $5.5mm. His kids will inherit more money, though. Maybe that's important to him. It's not important to me.